Frattini subgroup of a finite group











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I have been looking for information about the Frattini subgroup of a finite group. Almost all the books dealing with this topic discuss this subgroup for $p$-groups.



I am actually willing to discuss the following questions:



Let $G$ be a finite group. Is the Frattini subgroup of $G$ abelian?



Why is the order of the Frattini factor divisible by each prime divisor of $|G|$?










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  • No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:26












  • and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:29










  • for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:37










  • do you recommend any reference?
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:44















up vote
6
down vote

favorite
1












I have been looking for information about the Frattini subgroup of a finite group. Almost all the books dealing with this topic discuss this subgroup for $p$-groups.



I am actually willing to discuss the following questions:



Let $G$ be a finite group. Is the Frattini subgroup of $G$ abelian?



Why is the order of the Frattini factor divisible by each prime divisor of $|G|$?










share|cite|improve this question
























  • No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:26












  • and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:29










  • for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:37










  • do you recommend any reference?
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:44













up vote
6
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
6
down vote

favorite
1






1





I have been looking for information about the Frattini subgroup of a finite group. Almost all the books dealing with this topic discuss this subgroup for $p$-groups.



I am actually willing to discuss the following questions:



Let $G$ be a finite group. Is the Frattini subgroup of $G$ abelian?



Why is the order of the Frattini factor divisible by each prime divisor of $|G|$?










share|cite|improve this question















I have been looking for information about the Frattini subgroup of a finite group. Almost all the books dealing with this topic discuss this subgroup for $p$-groups.



I am actually willing to discuss the following questions:



Let $G$ be a finite group. Is the Frattini subgroup of $G$ abelian?



Why is the order of the Frattini factor divisible by each prime divisor of $|G|$?







group-theory reference-request finite-groups






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Dec 4 at 0:31









the_fox

2,3191430




2,3191430










asked Apr 23 '14 at 14:22









user145150

454




454












  • No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:26












  • and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:29










  • for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:37










  • do you recommend any reference?
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:44


















  • No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:26












  • and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:29










  • for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:37










  • do you recommend any reference?
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:44
















No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:26






No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:26














and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:29




and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:29












for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:37




for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:37












do you recommend any reference?
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:44




do you recommend any reference?
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:44










2 Answers
2






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up vote
10
down vote



accepted










Here is a proof that, for a finite group $G$, $|G/Phi(G)|$ is divisible by all primes $p$ dividing $|G|$. It uses the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem. I don't know whether that can be avoided.



First note that each Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $Phi(G)$ is normal in $G$. (So, in particular, $Phi(G)$ is nilpotent.) To see that, we have $G = Phi(G)N_G(P)$ by the Frattini Argument, and then by the fact that $Phi(G)$ consists of the non-generators of $G$, we have $G = N_G(P)$.



Now if there is a prime $p$ dividing $|G|$ but not dividing $|G/Phi(G)|$, then $Phi(G)$ contains a Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $G$ and $P unlhd G$. So, by the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem, $P$ has a complement $H$ in $G$. Let $M$ be a maximal subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Then $p$ divides $|G:M|$ and hence $p$ divides $|G/Phi(G)|$, contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:54


















up vote
5
down vote













To find a finite group with non-abelian Frattini subgroup, you'll need a group with a non-abelian maximal subgroup, but that does not suffice. The dihedral group of order 16 has a maximal subgroup isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 8, but the Frattini subgroup of a non-cyclic group of order 16 has order at most 4, so is abelian (it is Klein 4 in this case).



The smallest examples have order 64. One particular example is given by a matrix group:$$G=leftlangle begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 0 \ 1 & 2 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix},
begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 1 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix} mod 4rightrangle leq operatorname{GL}(2,mathbb{Z}/4mathbb{Z})$$
which is a semi-direct product of $C_4$ acting on $C_4 times C_4$. Its Frattini subgroup is isomorphic to $C_2 times D_8$. The only other possibility for a non-abelian Frattini subgroup of a group of order 64 is $C_2 times Q_8$.



One reason books emphasize Frattini subgroups of $p$-groups is that they have a very nice definition there: $Phi(G) = G^p [G,G]$. Hence calculations and theorems are much easier. For solvable groups, there is still some research into embedding properties related to the Frattini subgroup, and for non-solvable groups, there are significant questions left open.



I gave an answer you might be interested in, describing the groups that can occur as Frattini subgroups. In particular, some non-abelian groups are on the list. :-)






share|cite|improve this answer























  • so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 15:51











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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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up vote
10
down vote



accepted










Here is a proof that, for a finite group $G$, $|G/Phi(G)|$ is divisible by all primes $p$ dividing $|G|$. It uses the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem. I don't know whether that can be avoided.



First note that each Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $Phi(G)$ is normal in $G$. (So, in particular, $Phi(G)$ is nilpotent.) To see that, we have $G = Phi(G)N_G(P)$ by the Frattini Argument, and then by the fact that $Phi(G)$ consists of the non-generators of $G$, we have $G = N_G(P)$.



Now if there is a prime $p$ dividing $|G|$ but not dividing $|G/Phi(G)|$, then $Phi(G)$ contains a Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $G$ and $P unlhd G$. So, by the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem, $P$ has a complement $H$ in $G$. Let $M$ be a maximal subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Then $p$ divides $|G:M|$ and hence $p$ divides $|G/Phi(G)|$, contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:54















up vote
10
down vote



accepted










Here is a proof that, for a finite group $G$, $|G/Phi(G)|$ is divisible by all primes $p$ dividing $|G|$. It uses the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem. I don't know whether that can be avoided.



First note that each Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $Phi(G)$ is normal in $G$. (So, in particular, $Phi(G)$ is nilpotent.) To see that, we have $G = Phi(G)N_G(P)$ by the Frattini Argument, and then by the fact that $Phi(G)$ consists of the non-generators of $G$, we have $G = N_G(P)$.



Now if there is a prime $p$ dividing $|G|$ but not dividing $|G/Phi(G)|$, then $Phi(G)$ contains a Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $G$ and $P unlhd G$. So, by the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem, $P$ has a complement $H$ in $G$. Let $M$ be a maximal subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Then $p$ divides $|G:M|$ and hence $p$ divides $|G/Phi(G)|$, contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:54













up vote
10
down vote



accepted







up vote
10
down vote



accepted






Here is a proof that, for a finite group $G$, $|G/Phi(G)|$ is divisible by all primes $p$ dividing $|G|$. It uses the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem. I don't know whether that can be avoided.



First note that each Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $Phi(G)$ is normal in $G$. (So, in particular, $Phi(G)$ is nilpotent.) To see that, we have $G = Phi(G)N_G(P)$ by the Frattini Argument, and then by the fact that $Phi(G)$ consists of the non-generators of $G$, we have $G = N_G(P)$.



Now if there is a prime $p$ dividing $|G|$ but not dividing $|G/Phi(G)|$, then $Phi(G)$ contains a Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $G$ and $P unlhd G$. So, by the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem, $P$ has a complement $H$ in $G$. Let $M$ be a maximal subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Then $p$ divides $|G:M|$ and hence $p$ divides $|G/Phi(G)|$, contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer












Here is a proof that, for a finite group $G$, $|G/Phi(G)|$ is divisible by all primes $p$ dividing $|G|$. It uses the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem. I don't know whether that can be avoided.



First note that each Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $Phi(G)$ is normal in $G$. (So, in particular, $Phi(G)$ is nilpotent.) To see that, we have $G = Phi(G)N_G(P)$ by the Frattini Argument, and then by the fact that $Phi(G)$ consists of the non-generators of $G$, we have $G = N_G(P)$.



Now if there is a prime $p$ dividing $|G|$ but not dividing $|G/Phi(G)|$, then $Phi(G)$ contains a Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $G$ and $P unlhd G$. So, by the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem, $P$ has a complement $H$ in $G$. Let $M$ be a maximal subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Then $p$ divides $|G:M|$ and hence $p$ divides $|G/Phi(G)|$, contradiction.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Apr 23 '14 at 14:50









Derek Holt

52.3k53570




52.3k53570












  • Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:54


















  • Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:54
















Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:54




Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:54










up vote
5
down vote













To find a finite group with non-abelian Frattini subgroup, you'll need a group with a non-abelian maximal subgroup, but that does not suffice. The dihedral group of order 16 has a maximal subgroup isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 8, but the Frattini subgroup of a non-cyclic group of order 16 has order at most 4, so is abelian (it is Klein 4 in this case).



The smallest examples have order 64. One particular example is given by a matrix group:$$G=leftlangle begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 0 \ 1 & 2 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix},
begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 1 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix} mod 4rightrangle leq operatorname{GL}(2,mathbb{Z}/4mathbb{Z})$$
which is a semi-direct product of $C_4$ acting on $C_4 times C_4$. Its Frattini subgroup is isomorphic to $C_2 times D_8$. The only other possibility for a non-abelian Frattini subgroup of a group of order 64 is $C_2 times Q_8$.



One reason books emphasize Frattini subgroups of $p$-groups is that they have a very nice definition there: $Phi(G) = G^p [G,G]$. Hence calculations and theorems are much easier. For solvable groups, there is still some research into embedding properties related to the Frattini subgroup, and for non-solvable groups, there are significant questions left open.



I gave an answer you might be interested in, describing the groups that can occur as Frattini subgroups. In particular, some non-abelian groups are on the list. :-)






share|cite|improve this answer























  • so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 15:51















up vote
5
down vote













To find a finite group with non-abelian Frattini subgroup, you'll need a group with a non-abelian maximal subgroup, but that does not suffice. The dihedral group of order 16 has a maximal subgroup isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 8, but the Frattini subgroup of a non-cyclic group of order 16 has order at most 4, so is abelian (it is Klein 4 in this case).



The smallest examples have order 64. One particular example is given by a matrix group:$$G=leftlangle begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 0 \ 1 & 2 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix},
begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 1 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix} mod 4rightrangle leq operatorname{GL}(2,mathbb{Z}/4mathbb{Z})$$
which is a semi-direct product of $C_4$ acting on $C_4 times C_4$. Its Frattini subgroup is isomorphic to $C_2 times D_8$. The only other possibility for a non-abelian Frattini subgroup of a group of order 64 is $C_2 times Q_8$.



One reason books emphasize Frattini subgroups of $p$-groups is that they have a very nice definition there: $Phi(G) = G^p [G,G]$. Hence calculations and theorems are much easier. For solvable groups, there is still some research into embedding properties related to the Frattini subgroup, and for non-solvable groups, there are significant questions left open.



I gave an answer you might be interested in, describing the groups that can occur as Frattini subgroups. In particular, some non-abelian groups are on the list. :-)






share|cite|improve this answer























  • so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 15:51













up vote
5
down vote










up vote
5
down vote









To find a finite group with non-abelian Frattini subgroup, you'll need a group with a non-abelian maximal subgroup, but that does not suffice. The dihedral group of order 16 has a maximal subgroup isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 8, but the Frattini subgroup of a non-cyclic group of order 16 has order at most 4, so is abelian (it is Klein 4 in this case).



The smallest examples have order 64. One particular example is given by a matrix group:$$G=leftlangle begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 0 \ 1 & 2 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix},
begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 1 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix} mod 4rightrangle leq operatorname{GL}(2,mathbb{Z}/4mathbb{Z})$$
which is a semi-direct product of $C_4$ acting on $C_4 times C_4$. Its Frattini subgroup is isomorphic to $C_2 times D_8$. The only other possibility for a non-abelian Frattini subgroup of a group of order 64 is $C_2 times Q_8$.



One reason books emphasize Frattini subgroups of $p$-groups is that they have a very nice definition there: $Phi(G) = G^p [G,G]$. Hence calculations and theorems are much easier. For solvable groups, there is still some research into embedding properties related to the Frattini subgroup, and for non-solvable groups, there are significant questions left open.



I gave an answer you might be interested in, describing the groups that can occur as Frattini subgroups. In particular, some non-abelian groups are on the list. :-)






share|cite|improve this answer














To find a finite group with non-abelian Frattini subgroup, you'll need a group with a non-abelian maximal subgroup, but that does not suffice. The dihedral group of order 16 has a maximal subgroup isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 8, but the Frattini subgroup of a non-cyclic group of order 16 has order at most 4, so is abelian (it is Klein 4 in this case).



The smallest examples have order 64. One particular example is given by a matrix group:$$G=leftlangle begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 0 \ 1 & 2 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix},
begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 1 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix} mod 4rightrangle leq operatorname{GL}(2,mathbb{Z}/4mathbb{Z})$$
which is a semi-direct product of $C_4$ acting on $C_4 times C_4$. Its Frattini subgroup is isomorphic to $C_2 times D_8$. The only other possibility for a non-abelian Frattini subgroup of a group of order 64 is $C_2 times Q_8$.



One reason books emphasize Frattini subgroups of $p$-groups is that they have a very nice definition there: $Phi(G) = G^p [G,G]$. Hence calculations and theorems are much easier. For solvable groups, there is still some research into embedding properties related to the Frattini subgroup, and for non-solvable groups, there are significant questions left open.



I gave an answer you might be interested in, describing the groups that can occur as Frattini subgroups. In particular, some non-abelian groups are on the list. :-)







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Dec 4 at 0:46









the_fox

2,3191430




2,3191430










answered Apr 23 '14 at 15:38









Jack Schmidt

42.9k570148




42.9k570148












  • so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 15:51


















  • so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 15:51
















so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 15:51




so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 15:51


















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