(Proof) Product of Lindelöf and compact set is Lindelöf












1














Statement: Suppose $X$ is Lindelöf and $Y$ is compact, then $X times Y$ is Lindelöf.



I know that the real proof should be using the tube lemma, but what is the problem with the following proof?



Pick an open cover $mathcal{U}$ of $Xtimes Y$. Since the projection map $pi_1$ and $pi_2$ are open maps, the two collections $mathcal{A} = {pi_1(U)| Uin mathcal{U}}$ and $mathcal{B} ={pi_2(U)| Uin mathcal{U}}$ form open coverings for $X$ and $Y$, respectively. Since $X$ is Lindelof, there exists a countable subcovering $mathcal{U_X} = {pi_1(U_1), pi_1(U_2), cdots, pi_1(U_n), cdots} subset mathcal{A}$ that covers $X$. Since $Y$ is compact, there exists a finite subcovering $mathcal{U_Y} = {pi_2(U_1'), pi_2(U_2'), cdots, pi_2(U_n')}subset mathcal{B}$ that covers $Y$. Then the collection of sets $mathcal{U'} = mathcal{U_X} cup mathcal{U_Y}$ forms a countable covering $Xtimes Y$.










share|cite|improve this question





























    1














    Statement: Suppose $X$ is Lindelöf and $Y$ is compact, then $X times Y$ is Lindelöf.



    I know that the real proof should be using the tube lemma, but what is the problem with the following proof?



    Pick an open cover $mathcal{U}$ of $Xtimes Y$. Since the projection map $pi_1$ and $pi_2$ are open maps, the two collections $mathcal{A} = {pi_1(U)| Uin mathcal{U}}$ and $mathcal{B} ={pi_2(U)| Uin mathcal{U}}$ form open coverings for $X$ and $Y$, respectively. Since $X$ is Lindelof, there exists a countable subcovering $mathcal{U_X} = {pi_1(U_1), pi_1(U_2), cdots, pi_1(U_n), cdots} subset mathcal{A}$ that covers $X$. Since $Y$ is compact, there exists a finite subcovering $mathcal{U_Y} = {pi_2(U_1'), pi_2(U_2'), cdots, pi_2(U_n')}subset mathcal{B}$ that covers $Y$. Then the collection of sets $mathcal{U'} = mathcal{U_X} cup mathcal{U_Y}$ forms a countable covering $Xtimes Y$.










    share|cite|improve this question



























      1












      1








      1







      Statement: Suppose $X$ is Lindelöf and $Y$ is compact, then $X times Y$ is Lindelöf.



      I know that the real proof should be using the tube lemma, but what is the problem with the following proof?



      Pick an open cover $mathcal{U}$ of $Xtimes Y$. Since the projection map $pi_1$ and $pi_2$ are open maps, the two collections $mathcal{A} = {pi_1(U)| Uin mathcal{U}}$ and $mathcal{B} ={pi_2(U)| Uin mathcal{U}}$ form open coverings for $X$ and $Y$, respectively. Since $X$ is Lindelof, there exists a countable subcovering $mathcal{U_X} = {pi_1(U_1), pi_1(U_2), cdots, pi_1(U_n), cdots} subset mathcal{A}$ that covers $X$. Since $Y$ is compact, there exists a finite subcovering $mathcal{U_Y} = {pi_2(U_1'), pi_2(U_2'), cdots, pi_2(U_n')}subset mathcal{B}$ that covers $Y$. Then the collection of sets $mathcal{U'} = mathcal{U_X} cup mathcal{U_Y}$ forms a countable covering $Xtimes Y$.










      share|cite|improve this question















      Statement: Suppose $X$ is Lindelöf and $Y$ is compact, then $X times Y$ is Lindelöf.



      I know that the real proof should be using the tube lemma, but what is the problem with the following proof?



      Pick an open cover $mathcal{U}$ of $Xtimes Y$. Since the projection map $pi_1$ and $pi_2$ are open maps, the two collections $mathcal{A} = {pi_1(U)| Uin mathcal{U}}$ and $mathcal{B} ={pi_2(U)| Uin mathcal{U}}$ form open coverings for $X$ and $Y$, respectively. Since $X$ is Lindelof, there exists a countable subcovering $mathcal{U_X} = {pi_1(U_1), pi_1(U_2), cdots, pi_1(U_n), cdots} subset mathcal{A}$ that covers $X$. Since $Y$ is compact, there exists a finite subcovering $mathcal{U_Y} = {pi_2(U_1'), pi_2(U_2'), cdots, pi_2(U_n')}subset mathcal{B}$ that covers $Y$. Then the collection of sets $mathcal{U'} = mathcal{U_X} cup mathcal{U_Y}$ forms a countable covering $Xtimes Y$.







      general-topology






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited Dec 7 at 20:25









      J.Doe

      164




      164










      asked Feb 23 '17 at 2:10









      Ruby

      965




      965






















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          2














          Firstly, as a notation issue $mathcal{U}_X$ is a cover of $X$ and likewise $mathcal{U}_Y$ is one for $Y$. We are looking for a subcover of $mathcal{U}$ which are open sets in $X times Y$, while your $mathcal{U}_X$ are open sets in $X$, not of $mathcal{U}$.



          You probably mean the sets in $mathcal{U}$ they are projections of, so if we have $mathcal{A}' = {pi_1[U_1], ldots, pi_1[U_n], ldots, }$ as a countable subcover of $mathcal{A}$ you define $mathcal{U}_X$ as ${U in mathcal{U}: pi_1[U] in mathcal{A}'}$, so at least all the $U_n$ etc. Similarly for $mathcal{U}_Y$ and a finite subcover $mathcal{B}'$ of $mathcal{B}$, of course.



          How would a "proof" that this is in fact a subcover go? Suppose $(x,y) in X$. Then $x$ is covered by some $pi_1[U(x)] in mathcal{A}'$, and also by some $pi_1[U(y)] in mathcal{B}'$. Nothing garantuees you that $(x,y)$ is in either $U(x)$ or $U(y)$ as the first only has a condition only on $x$ and the second only on $y$, not on them both combined.



          You might think, define my subcover to be all products ${U times V: U in mathcal{A}', B in mathcal{B}'}$. This is not necessarily a subcover either: e.g. suppose we were covering with open circles in the plane, then the products of projections give open squares (so a totally different open cover).



          The final idea you could have (also doesn't work): start with a cover ${U_i times V_i: i in I}$ of basic open sets (these suffice for showing Lindelöfness), find countably many $J subset I$ such that ${U_i: i in J}$ cover $X$ and finitely many $J'$ such that ${V_j: j in J'}$ covers $Y$.
          Then form all ${U_i times V_j: i in I', j in J'}$. These now do form a countable cover of $X times Y$, but not necesarilly a subcover as the index sets $I',J'$ could be totally disjoint (we get them independently of each other), so we are making new sets here that were not in the original cover, which is what the point was.



          It's good to think about proofs like this; they don't work, and you see why you need another idea (here the tube lemma).






          share|cite|improve this answer





























            -1














            I've found it useful, when thinking about a proof, to carry it to the extreme. For example, your "proof".does not need compactness, it works for X and Y Lindelof. In fact, it "shows" for any space X that any cover of XxX which includes the diagonal has a finite subcover. Considering those cases should lead you to the error.






            share|cite|improve this answer





















              Your Answer





              StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
              return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
              StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
              StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
              });
              });
              }, "mathjax-editing");

              StackExchange.ready(function() {
              var channelOptions = {
              tags: "".split(" "),
              id: "69"
              };
              initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

              StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
              // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
              if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
              StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
              createEditor();
              });
              }
              else {
              createEditor();
              }
              });

              function createEditor() {
              StackExchange.prepareEditor({
              heartbeatType: 'answer',
              autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
              convertImagesToLinks: true,
              noModals: true,
              showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
              reputationToPostImages: 10,
              bindNavPrevention: true,
              postfix: "",
              imageUploader: {
              brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
              contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
              allowUrls: true
              },
              noCode: true, onDemand: true,
              discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
              ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
              });


              }
              });














              draft saved

              draft discarded


















              StackExchange.ready(
              function () {
              StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2157230%2fproof-product-of-lindel%25c3%25b6f-and-compact-set-is-lindel%25c3%25b6f%23new-answer', 'question_page');
              }
              );

              Post as a guest















              Required, but never shown

























              2 Answers
              2






              active

              oldest

              votes








              2 Answers
              2






              active

              oldest

              votes









              active

              oldest

              votes






              active

              oldest

              votes









              2














              Firstly, as a notation issue $mathcal{U}_X$ is a cover of $X$ and likewise $mathcal{U}_Y$ is one for $Y$. We are looking for a subcover of $mathcal{U}$ which are open sets in $X times Y$, while your $mathcal{U}_X$ are open sets in $X$, not of $mathcal{U}$.



              You probably mean the sets in $mathcal{U}$ they are projections of, so if we have $mathcal{A}' = {pi_1[U_1], ldots, pi_1[U_n], ldots, }$ as a countable subcover of $mathcal{A}$ you define $mathcal{U}_X$ as ${U in mathcal{U}: pi_1[U] in mathcal{A}'}$, so at least all the $U_n$ etc. Similarly for $mathcal{U}_Y$ and a finite subcover $mathcal{B}'$ of $mathcal{B}$, of course.



              How would a "proof" that this is in fact a subcover go? Suppose $(x,y) in X$. Then $x$ is covered by some $pi_1[U(x)] in mathcal{A}'$, and also by some $pi_1[U(y)] in mathcal{B}'$. Nothing garantuees you that $(x,y)$ is in either $U(x)$ or $U(y)$ as the first only has a condition only on $x$ and the second only on $y$, not on them both combined.



              You might think, define my subcover to be all products ${U times V: U in mathcal{A}', B in mathcal{B}'}$. This is not necessarily a subcover either: e.g. suppose we were covering with open circles in the plane, then the products of projections give open squares (so a totally different open cover).



              The final idea you could have (also doesn't work): start with a cover ${U_i times V_i: i in I}$ of basic open sets (these suffice for showing Lindelöfness), find countably many $J subset I$ such that ${U_i: i in J}$ cover $X$ and finitely many $J'$ such that ${V_j: j in J'}$ covers $Y$.
              Then form all ${U_i times V_j: i in I', j in J'}$. These now do form a countable cover of $X times Y$, but not necesarilly a subcover as the index sets $I',J'$ could be totally disjoint (we get them independently of each other), so we are making new sets here that were not in the original cover, which is what the point was.



              It's good to think about proofs like this; they don't work, and you see why you need another idea (here the tube lemma).






              share|cite|improve this answer


























                2














                Firstly, as a notation issue $mathcal{U}_X$ is a cover of $X$ and likewise $mathcal{U}_Y$ is one for $Y$. We are looking for a subcover of $mathcal{U}$ which are open sets in $X times Y$, while your $mathcal{U}_X$ are open sets in $X$, not of $mathcal{U}$.



                You probably mean the sets in $mathcal{U}$ they are projections of, so if we have $mathcal{A}' = {pi_1[U_1], ldots, pi_1[U_n], ldots, }$ as a countable subcover of $mathcal{A}$ you define $mathcal{U}_X$ as ${U in mathcal{U}: pi_1[U] in mathcal{A}'}$, so at least all the $U_n$ etc. Similarly for $mathcal{U}_Y$ and a finite subcover $mathcal{B}'$ of $mathcal{B}$, of course.



                How would a "proof" that this is in fact a subcover go? Suppose $(x,y) in X$. Then $x$ is covered by some $pi_1[U(x)] in mathcal{A}'$, and also by some $pi_1[U(y)] in mathcal{B}'$. Nothing garantuees you that $(x,y)$ is in either $U(x)$ or $U(y)$ as the first only has a condition only on $x$ and the second only on $y$, not on them both combined.



                You might think, define my subcover to be all products ${U times V: U in mathcal{A}', B in mathcal{B}'}$. This is not necessarily a subcover either: e.g. suppose we were covering with open circles in the plane, then the products of projections give open squares (so a totally different open cover).



                The final idea you could have (also doesn't work): start with a cover ${U_i times V_i: i in I}$ of basic open sets (these suffice for showing Lindelöfness), find countably many $J subset I$ such that ${U_i: i in J}$ cover $X$ and finitely many $J'$ such that ${V_j: j in J'}$ covers $Y$.
                Then form all ${U_i times V_j: i in I', j in J'}$. These now do form a countable cover of $X times Y$, but not necesarilly a subcover as the index sets $I',J'$ could be totally disjoint (we get them independently of each other), so we are making new sets here that were not in the original cover, which is what the point was.



                It's good to think about proofs like this; they don't work, and you see why you need another idea (here the tube lemma).






                share|cite|improve this answer
























                  2












                  2








                  2






                  Firstly, as a notation issue $mathcal{U}_X$ is a cover of $X$ and likewise $mathcal{U}_Y$ is one for $Y$. We are looking for a subcover of $mathcal{U}$ which are open sets in $X times Y$, while your $mathcal{U}_X$ are open sets in $X$, not of $mathcal{U}$.



                  You probably mean the sets in $mathcal{U}$ they are projections of, so if we have $mathcal{A}' = {pi_1[U_1], ldots, pi_1[U_n], ldots, }$ as a countable subcover of $mathcal{A}$ you define $mathcal{U}_X$ as ${U in mathcal{U}: pi_1[U] in mathcal{A}'}$, so at least all the $U_n$ etc. Similarly for $mathcal{U}_Y$ and a finite subcover $mathcal{B}'$ of $mathcal{B}$, of course.



                  How would a "proof" that this is in fact a subcover go? Suppose $(x,y) in X$. Then $x$ is covered by some $pi_1[U(x)] in mathcal{A}'$, and also by some $pi_1[U(y)] in mathcal{B}'$. Nothing garantuees you that $(x,y)$ is in either $U(x)$ or $U(y)$ as the first only has a condition only on $x$ and the second only on $y$, not on them both combined.



                  You might think, define my subcover to be all products ${U times V: U in mathcal{A}', B in mathcal{B}'}$. This is not necessarily a subcover either: e.g. suppose we were covering with open circles in the plane, then the products of projections give open squares (so a totally different open cover).



                  The final idea you could have (also doesn't work): start with a cover ${U_i times V_i: i in I}$ of basic open sets (these suffice for showing Lindelöfness), find countably many $J subset I$ such that ${U_i: i in J}$ cover $X$ and finitely many $J'$ such that ${V_j: j in J'}$ covers $Y$.
                  Then form all ${U_i times V_j: i in I', j in J'}$. These now do form a countable cover of $X times Y$, but not necesarilly a subcover as the index sets $I',J'$ could be totally disjoint (we get them independently of each other), so we are making new sets here that were not in the original cover, which is what the point was.



                  It's good to think about proofs like this; they don't work, and you see why you need another idea (here the tube lemma).






                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  Firstly, as a notation issue $mathcal{U}_X$ is a cover of $X$ and likewise $mathcal{U}_Y$ is one for $Y$. We are looking for a subcover of $mathcal{U}$ which are open sets in $X times Y$, while your $mathcal{U}_X$ are open sets in $X$, not of $mathcal{U}$.



                  You probably mean the sets in $mathcal{U}$ they are projections of, so if we have $mathcal{A}' = {pi_1[U_1], ldots, pi_1[U_n], ldots, }$ as a countable subcover of $mathcal{A}$ you define $mathcal{U}_X$ as ${U in mathcal{U}: pi_1[U] in mathcal{A}'}$, so at least all the $U_n$ etc. Similarly for $mathcal{U}_Y$ and a finite subcover $mathcal{B}'$ of $mathcal{B}$, of course.



                  How would a "proof" that this is in fact a subcover go? Suppose $(x,y) in X$. Then $x$ is covered by some $pi_1[U(x)] in mathcal{A}'$, and also by some $pi_1[U(y)] in mathcal{B}'$. Nothing garantuees you that $(x,y)$ is in either $U(x)$ or $U(y)$ as the first only has a condition only on $x$ and the second only on $y$, not on them both combined.



                  You might think, define my subcover to be all products ${U times V: U in mathcal{A}', B in mathcal{B}'}$. This is not necessarily a subcover either: e.g. suppose we were covering with open circles in the plane, then the products of projections give open squares (so a totally different open cover).



                  The final idea you could have (also doesn't work): start with a cover ${U_i times V_i: i in I}$ of basic open sets (these suffice for showing Lindelöfness), find countably many $J subset I$ such that ${U_i: i in J}$ cover $X$ and finitely many $J'$ such that ${V_j: j in J'}$ covers $Y$.
                  Then form all ${U_i times V_j: i in I', j in J'}$. These now do form a countable cover of $X times Y$, but not necesarilly a subcover as the index sets $I',J'$ could be totally disjoint (we get them independently of each other), so we are making new sets here that were not in the original cover, which is what the point was.



                  It's good to think about proofs like this; they don't work, and you see why you need another idea (here the tube lemma).







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Feb 23 '17 at 4:31









                  Henno Brandsma

                  104k346113




                  104k346113























                      -1














                      I've found it useful, when thinking about a proof, to carry it to the extreme. For example, your "proof".does not need compactness, it works for X and Y Lindelof. In fact, it "shows" for any space X that any cover of XxX which includes the diagonal has a finite subcover. Considering those cases should lead you to the error.






                      share|cite|improve this answer


























                        -1














                        I've found it useful, when thinking about a proof, to carry it to the extreme. For example, your "proof".does not need compactness, it works for X and Y Lindelof. In fact, it "shows" for any space X that any cover of XxX which includes the diagonal has a finite subcover. Considering those cases should lead you to the error.






                        share|cite|improve this answer
























                          -1












                          -1








                          -1






                          I've found it useful, when thinking about a proof, to carry it to the extreme. For example, your "proof".does not need compactness, it works for X and Y Lindelof. In fact, it "shows" for any space X that any cover of XxX which includes the diagonal has a finite subcover. Considering those cases should lead you to the error.






                          share|cite|improve this answer












                          I've found it useful, when thinking about a proof, to carry it to the extreme. For example, your "proof".does not need compactness, it works for X and Y Lindelof. In fact, it "shows" for any space X that any cover of XxX which includes the diagonal has a finite subcover. Considering those cases should lead you to the error.







                          share|cite|improve this answer












                          share|cite|improve this answer



                          share|cite|improve this answer










                          answered Apr 21 at 22:52









                          N. Noble

                          1




                          1






























                              draft saved

                              draft discarded




















































                              Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


                              • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                              But avoid



                              • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                              • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                              Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                              To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





                              Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


                              Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


                              • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                              But avoid



                              • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                              • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                              To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                              draft saved


                              draft discarded














                              StackExchange.ready(
                              function () {
                              StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2157230%2fproof-product-of-lindel%25c3%25b6f-and-compact-set-is-lindel%25c3%25b6f%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                              }
                              );

                              Post as a guest















                              Required, but never shown





















































                              Required, but never shown














                              Required, but never shown












                              Required, but never shown







                              Required, but never shown

































                              Required, but never shown














                              Required, but never shown












                              Required, but never shown







                              Required, but never shown







                              Popular posts from this blog

                              Bressuire

                              Cabo Verde

                              Gyllenstierna