If $H<G$ are finite groups, must there be a way to realize them as permutation groups such that $H$ is not...












3














Let $H<G$ be finite groups. Must there be a positive integer $n$ such that there exists a homomorphism $f:Gto S_n$ with $f(G)$ transitive and $f(H)$ not transitive?



If $H$ is a normal subgroup of $G$, then we can consider $G/Hhookrightarrow S_{lvert G/Hrvert}$.










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 3




    What is the role of "$m$" in your problem statement?
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 26 at 16:43










  • Hint: Cayley presentation of $G$ (when $n=|G|$)
    – Jyrki Lahtonen
    Jun 26 at 16:44










  • @EricTowers Oops, I was originally going to say "and $H$ only acts on the first $m$ elements of $S_n$", but then I wrote it the way that I did; I have now removed $m$ from the post.
    – alphacapture
    Jun 27 at 17:00












  • Oh dear, I've just realized that "transitive" was not equivalent to what I wanted to say at all...
    – alphacapture
    Jun 27 at 17:06
















3














Let $H<G$ be finite groups. Must there be a positive integer $n$ such that there exists a homomorphism $f:Gto S_n$ with $f(G)$ transitive and $f(H)$ not transitive?



If $H$ is a normal subgroup of $G$, then we can consider $G/Hhookrightarrow S_{lvert G/Hrvert}$.










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 3




    What is the role of "$m$" in your problem statement?
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 26 at 16:43










  • Hint: Cayley presentation of $G$ (when $n=|G|$)
    – Jyrki Lahtonen
    Jun 26 at 16:44










  • @EricTowers Oops, I was originally going to say "and $H$ only acts on the first $m$ elements of $S_n$", but then I wrote it the way that I did; I have now removed $m$ from the post.
    – alphacapture
    Jun 27 at 17:00












  • Oh dear, I've just realized that "transitive" was not equivalent to what I wanted to say at all...
    – alphacapture
    Jun 27 at 17:06














3












3








3







Let $H<G$ be finite groups. Must there be a positive integer $n$ such that there exists a homomorphism $f:Gto S_n$ with $f(G)$ transitive and $f(H)$ not transitive?



If $H$ is a normal subgroup of $G$, then we can consider $G/Hhookrightarrow S_{lvert G/Hrvert}$.










share|cite|improve this question















Let $H<G$ be finite groups. Must there be a positive integer $n$ such that there exists a homomorphism $f:Gto S_n$ with $f(G)$ transitive and $f(H)$ not transitive?



If $H$ is a normal subgroup of $G$, then we can consider $G/Hhookrightarrow S_{lvert G/Hrvert}$.







group-theory finite-groups






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Jun 27 at 16:59

























asked Jun 26 at 16:39









alphacapture

1,851421




1,851421








  • 3




    What is the role of "$m$" in your problem statement?
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 26 at 16:43










  • Hint: Cayley presentation of $G$ (when $n=|G|$)
    – Jyrki Lahtonen
    Jun 26 at 16:44










  • @EricTowers Oops, I was originally going to say "and $H$ only acts on the first $m$ elements of $S_n$", but then I wrote it the way that I did; I have now removed $m$ from the post.
    – alphacapture
    Jun 27 at 17:00












  • Oh dear, I've just realized that "transitive" was not equivalent to what I wanted to say at all...
    – alphacapture
    Jun 27 at 17:06














  • 3




    What is the role of "$m$" in your problem statement?
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 26 at 16:43










  • Hint: Cayley presentation of $G$ (when $n=|G|$)
    – Jyrki Lahtonen
    Jun 26 at 16:44










  • @EricTowers Oops, I was originally going to say "and $H$ only acts on the first $m$ elements of $S_n$", but then I wrote it the way that I did; I have now removed $m$ from the post.
    – alphacapture
    Jun 27 at 17:00












  • Oh dear, I've just realized that "transitive" was not equivalent to what I wanted to say at all...
    – alphacapture
    Jun 27 at 17:06








3




3




What is the role of "$m$" in your problem statement?
– Eric Towers
Jun 26 at 16:43




What is the role of "$m$" in your problem statement?
– Eric Towers
Jun 26 at 16:43












Hint: Cayley presentation of $G$ (when $n=|G|$)
– Jyrki Lahtonen
Jun 26 at 16:44




Hint: Cayley presentation of $G$ (when $n=|G|$)
– Jyrki Lahtonen
Jun 26 at 16:44












@EricTowers Oops, I was originally going to say "and $H$ only acts on the first $m$ elements of $S_n$", but then I wrote it the way that I did; I have now removed $m$ from the post.
– alphacapture
Jun 27 at 17:00






@EricTowers Oops, I was originally going to say "and $H$ only acts on the first $m$ elements of $S_n$", but then I wrote it the way that I did; I have now removed $m$ from the post.
– alphacapture
Jun 27 at 17:00














Oh dear, I've just realized that "transitive" was not equivalent to what I wanted to say at all...
– alphacapture
Jun 27 at 17:06




Oh dear, I've just realized that "transitive" was not equivalent to what I wanted to say at all...
– alphacapture
Jun 27 at 17:06










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















1














Lord Shark the Unknown has already answered the question, but here is another answer:



Let $n = [G:H]$, and define $phi:Grightarrow S_n$ as $G$'s left translation action on the left cosets of $H$. The $G$-action is transitive, but the action restricted to $H$ has the coset $H$ as a fixed point.



A generalization encompassing both answers is: let $K$ be any subgroup of $H$; define $n=[G:K]$, and define $phi:Grightarrow S_n$ as the left-translation action on the left cosets of $K$. As before, the $G$-action is transitive, but the restriction to $H$ cannot move the coset $K$ to any coset of $K$ lying outside $H$.



The above takes $K=H$, and Lord Shark the Unknown's answer takes $K={1}$.



Addendum 6/28/18: Yet another answer. Let $K$ be any proper subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Just as with $K=H$, the $G$-action is transitive while the $H$-action has $K$ as a fixed point.



This prompts me to ask a more comprehensive version of the question. Let $Hsubset G$ be a proper subgroup and let $Grightarrow S_n$ be a transitive action. Under what circumstances is the restriction to $H$ transitive?



Since any transitive action is isomorphic to a translation action on left cosets, there is a subgroup $K$ such that $n=[G:K]$ and we can identify the elements of the set being acted on with left cosets of $K$. Then the action of $H$ is transitive if and only if $H$ meets each of $K$'s cosets. $H$ containing and being contained in $K$ are both ways to guarantee that $H$ fails to meet all of $K$'s left cosets, but they are not the only ways this can happen.



Addendum 12/10/18: Keeping notation as in the previous addendum ($K$ is any subgroup of $G$, giving a transitive action by $G$ on the left cosets of $K$; $H$ is a specific subgroup and we wish to know if the restriction of the action to $H$ is also transitive), we know the restriction to $H$ is transitive if $H$ meets every coset of $K$.



This is equivalent to $HK = G$. The above results can be explained as $Ksubset H Rightarrow HK = H <G$, and $Hsubset K Rightarrow HK = K < G$. But anything that guarantees $HK < G$ will also do, e.g. if $|H||K|<|G|$. Thus take $K$ to be any subgroup with order $<$ the index of $H$.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • ...and this also answers the intended version of my question as well!
    – alphacapture
    Jun 27 at 17:38



















5














Let $n=|G|$. Then the regular representation of $G$ is a homomorphism
$f:Gto S_n$ whose image is simply transitive. If $H$ is a proper subgroup
of $G$ then $f(H)$ is a non-transitive subgroup of $S_n$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Why do you believe $f(G)$ acts transitively on $f(G)$ but $f(H)$ does not act transitively on $f(H)$? Alternatively, unless $f$ is surjective, why do you believe your non-transitivity argument for $f(H)$ does not apply mutis mutandis to $f(G)$?
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 26 at 16:49








  • 3




    @EricTowers I can't make much sense of your question! $f(G)$ is a transitive subgroup of $S_n$ by standard properties of the regular representation, and $f(H)$ is intransitive when $H ne G$. I don't know what you mean by $f(H)$ acting on $f(H)$.
    – Derek Holt
    Jun 26 at 17:14










  • @DerekHolt : You and OP present the same imprecision. A group is transitive if its action is transitive. Action on what? Unless $f$ is surjective, $f(G)$ does not act transitively on $S_n$ and a proper subgroup of $f(G)$ will not either. So generically neither is transitive (although this can be forced for small enough $n$). The only other interpretation, the one begged by the second paragraph of the OP, is $f(G)$ acts on $f(G)$ and $f(H)$ acts on $f(H)$. Then Jyrki Lahtonen's comment applies, making both transitive.
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 26 at 17:26






  • 1




    @EricTowers I don't think we are communicating very well here. I find the three sentences in the above answer completely clear, unambiguous and correct. I have no idea what you mean by $f(G)$ acting on $S_n$. $f(G)$ is a subgroup of $S_n$, and is transitive with trivial stabilizers. There is no particular need to involve group actions in the above statements at all. You can define what it means for a subgroup of $S_n$ to be transitive without involving group actions.
    – Derek Holt
    Jun 26 at 19:01








  • 1




    To my mind (this is just the way I learnt the subject myself a long time ago) you have it the wrong way round. $S_n$ is by definition the group of all permutations of a set $X$ of size $n$. A subgroup $H$ of $S_n$ (which is called a permutation group) is transitive if for all $x,y in X$ there exists $g in H$ with $x^g=y$ (or $g(x)=y$ if you prefer). An action of a group $G$ on a set $X$ is a homomorphism $phi:G to {rm Sym}(X)$, and the action is transiitve if its image is a transitive subgroup of ${rm Sym}(X)$.
    – Derek Holt
    Jun 26 at 19:11











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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2






active

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active

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active

oldest

votes









1














Lord Shark the Unknown has already answered the question, but here is another answer:



Let $n = [G:H]$, and define $phi:Grightarrow S_n$ as $G$'s left translation action on the left cosets of $H$. The $G$-action is transitive, but the action restricted to $H$ has the coset $H$ as a fixed point.



A generalization encompassing both answers is: let $K$ be any subgroup of $H$; define $n=[G:K]$, and define $phi:Grightarrow S_n$ as the left-translation action on the left cosets of $K$. As before, the $G$-action is transitive, but the restriction to $H$ cannot move the coset $K$ to any coset of $K$ lying outside $H$.



The above takes $K=H$, and Lord Shark the Unknown's answer takes $K={1}$.



Addendum 6/28/18: Yet another answer. Let $K$ be any proper subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Just as with $K=H$, the $G$-action is transitive while the $H$-action has $K$ as a fixed point.



This prompts me to ask a more comprehensive version of the question. Let $Hsubset G$ be a proper subgroup and let $Grightarrow S_n$ be a transitive action. Under what circumstances is the restriction to $H$ transitive?



Since any transitive action is isomorphic to a translation action on left cosets, there is a subgroup $K$ such that $n=[G:K]$ and we can identify the elements of the set being acted on with left cosets of $K$. Then the action of $H$ is transitive if and only if $H$ meets each of $K$'s cosets. $H$ containing and being contained in $K$ are both ways to guarantee that $H$ fails to meet all of $K$'s left cosets, but they are not the only ways this can happen.



Addendum 12/10/18: Keeping notation as in the previous addendum ($K$ is any subgroup of $G$, giving a transitive action by $G$ on the left cosets of $K$; $H$ is a specific subgroup and we wish to know if the restriction of the action to $H$ is also transitive), we know the restriction to $H$ is transitive if $H$ meets every coset of $K$.



This is equivalent to $HK = G$. The above results can be explained as $Ksubset H Rightarrow HK = H <G$, and $Hsubset K Rightarrow HK = K < G$. But anything that guarantees $HK < G$ will also do, e.g. if $|H||K|<|G|$. Thus take $K$ to be any subgroup with order $<$ the index of $H$.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • ...and this also answers the intended version of my question as well!
    – alphacapture
    Jun 27 at 17:38
















1














Lord Shark the Unknown has already answered the question, but here is another answer:



Let $n = [G:H]$, and define $phi:Grightarrow S_n$ as $G$'s left translation action on the left cosets of $H$. The $G$-action is transitive, but the action restricted to $H$ has the coset $H$ as a fixed point.



A generalization encompassing both answers is: let $K$ be any subgroup of $H$; define $n=[G:K]$, and define $phi:Grightarrow S_n$ as the left-translation action on the left cosets of $K$. As before, the $G$-action is transitive, but the restriction to $H$ cannot move the coset $K$ to any coset of $K$ lying outside $H$.



The above takes $K=H$, and Lord Shark the Unknown's answer takes $K={1}$.



Addendum 6/28/18: Yet another answer. Let $K$ be any proper subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Just as with $K=H$, the $G$-action is transitive while the $H$-action has $K$ as a fixed point.



This prompts me to ask a more comprehensive version of the question. Let $Hsubset G$ be a proper subgroup and let $Grightarrow S_n$ be a transitive action. Under what circumstances is the restriction to $H$ transitive?



Since any transitive action is isomorphic to a translation action on left cosets, there is a subgroup $K$ such that $n=[G:K]$ and we can identify the elements of the set being acted on with left cosets of $K$. Then the action of $H$ is transitive if and only if $H$ meets each of $K$'s cosets. $H$ containing and being contained in $K$ are both ways to guarantee that $H$ fails to meet all of $K$'s left cosets, but they are not the only ways this can happen.



Addendum 12/10/18: Keeping notation as in the previous addendum ($K$ is any subgroup of $G$, giving a transitive action by $G$ on the left cosets of $K$; $H$ is a specific subgroup and we wish to know if the restriction of the action to $H$ is also transitive), we know the restriction to $H$ is transitive if $H$ meets every coset of $K$.



This is equivalent to $HK = G$. The above results can be explained as $Ksubset H Rightarrow HK = H <G$, and $Hsubset K Rightarrow HK = K < G$. But anything that guarantees $HK < G$ will also do, e.g. if $|H||K|<|G|$. Thus take $K$ to be any subgroup with order $<$ the index of $H$.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • ...and this also answers the intended version of my question as well!
    – alphacapture
    Jun 27 at 17:38














1












1








1






Lord Shark the Unknown has already answered the question, but here is another answer:



Let $n = [G:H]$, and define $phi:Grightarrow S_n$ as $G$'s left translation action on the left cosets of $H$. The $G$-action is transitive, but the action restricted to $H$ has the coset $H$ as a fixed point.



A generalization encompassing both answers is: let $K$ be any subgroup of $H$; define $n=[G:K]$, and define $phi:Grightarrow S_n$ as the left-translation action on the left cosets of $K$. As before, the $G$-action is transitive, but the restriction to $H$ cannot move the coset $K$ to any coset of $K$ lying outside $H$.



The above takes $K=H$, and Lord Shark the Unknown's answer takes $K={1}$.



Addendum 6/28/18: Yet another answer. Let $K$ be any proper subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Just as with $K=H$, the $G$-action is transitive while the $H$-action has $K$ as a fixed point.



This prompts me to ask a more comprehensive version of the question. Let $Hsubset G$ be a proper subgroup and let $Grightarrow S_n$ be a transitive action. Under what circumstances is the restriction to $H$ transitive?



Since any transitive action is isomorphic to a translation action on left cosets, there is a subgroup $K$ such that $n=[G:K]$ and we can identify the elements of the set being acted on with left cosets of $K$. Then the action of $H$ is transitive if and only if $H$ meets each of $K$'s cosets. $H$ containing and being contained in $K$ are both ways to guarantee that $H$ fails to meet all of $K$'s left cosets, but they are not the only ways this can happen.



Addendum 12/10/18: Keeping notation as in the previous addendum ($K$ is any subgroup of $G$, giving a transitive action by $G$ on the left cosets of $K$; $H$ is a specific subgroup and we wish to know if the restriction of the action to $H$ is also transitive), we know the restriction to $H$ is transitive if $H$ meets every coset of $K$.



This is equivalent to $HK = G$. The above results can be explained as $Ksubset H Rightarrow HK = H <G$, and $Hsubset K Rightarrow HK = K < G$. But anything that guarantees $HK < G$ will also do, e.g. if $|H||K|<|G|$. Thus take $K$ to be any subgroup with order $<$ the index of $H$.






share|cite|improve this answer














Lord Shark the Unknown has already answered the question, but here is another answer:



Let $n = [G:H]$, and define $phi:Grightarrow S_n$ as $G$'s left translation action on the left cosets of $H$. The $G$-action is transitive, but the action restricted to $H$ has the coset $H$ as a fixed point.



A generalization encompassing both answers is: let $K$ be any subgroup of $H$; define $n=[G:K]$, and define $phi:Grightarrow S_n$ as the left-translation action on the left cosets of $K$. As before, the $G$-action is transitive, but the restriction to $H$ cannot move the coset $K$ to any coset of $K$ lying outside $H$.



The above takes $K=H$, and Lord Shark the Unknown's answer takes $K={1}$.



Addendum 6/28/18: Yet another answer. Let $K$ be any proper subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Just as with $K=H$, the $G$-action is transitive while the $H$-action has $K$ as a fixed point.



This prompts me to ask a more comprehensive version of the question. Let $Hsubset G$ be a proper subgroup and let $Grightarrow S_n$ be a transitive action. Under what circumstances is the restriction to $H$ transitive?



Since any transitive action is isomorphic to a translation action on left cosets, there is a subgroup $K$ such that $n=[G:K]$ and we can identify the elements of the set being acted on with left cosets of $K$. Then the action of $H$ is transitive if and only if $H$ meets each of $K$'s cosets. $H$ containing and being contained in $K$ are both ways to guarantee that $H$ fails to meet all of $K$'s left cosets, but they are not the only ways this can happen.



Addendum 12/10/18: Keeping notation as in the previous addendum ($K$ is any subgroup of $G$, giving a transitive action by $G$ on the left cosets of $K$; $H$ is a specific subgroup and we wish to know if the restriction of the action to $H$ is also transitive), we know the restriction to $H$ is transitive if $H$ meets every coset of $K$.



This is equivalent to $HK = G$. The above results can be explained as $Ksubset H Rightarrow HK = H <G$, and $Hsubset K Rightarrow HK = K < G$. But anything that guarantees $HK < G$ will also do, e.g. if $|H||K|<|G|$. Thus take $K$ to be any subgroup with order $<$ the index of $H$.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Dec 8 at 17:06

























answered Jun 27 at 17:10









Ben Blum-Smith

9,93523085




9,93523085












  • ...and this also answers the intended version of my question as well!
    – alphacapture
    Jun 27 at 17:38


















  • ...and this also answers the intended version of my question as well!
    – alphacapture
    Jun 27 at 17:38
















...and this also answers the intended version of my question as well!
– alphacapture
Jun 27 at 17:38




...and this also answers the intended version of my question as well!
– alphacapture
Jun 27 at 17:38











5














Let $n=|G|$. Then the regular representation of $G$ is a homomorphism
$f:Gto S_n$ whose image is simply transitive. If $H$ is a proper subgroup
of $G$ then $f(H)$ is a non-transitive subgroup of $S_n$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Why do you believe $f(G)$ acts transitively on $f(G)$ but $f(H)$ does not act transitively on $f(H)$? Alternatively, unless $f$ is surjective, why do you believe your non-transitivity argument for $f(H)$ does not apply mutis mutandis to $f(G)$?
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 26 at 16:49








  • 3




    @EricTowers I can't make much sense of your question! $f(G)$ is a transitive subgroup of $S_n$ by standard properties of the regular representation, and $f(H)$ is intransitive when $H ne G$. I don't know what you mean by $f(H)$ acting on $f(H)$.
    – Derek Holt
    Jun 26 at 17:14










  • @DerekHolt : You and OP present the same imprecision. A group is transitive if its action is transitive. Action on what? Unless $f$ is surjective, $f(G)$ does not act transitively on $S_n$ and a proper subgroup of $f(G)$ will not either. So generically neither is transitive (although this can be forced for small enough $n$). The only other interpretation, the one begged by the second paragraph of the OP, is $f(G)$ acts on $f(G)$ and $f(H)$ acts on $f(H)$. Then Jyrki Lahtonen's comment applies, making both transitive.
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 26 at 17:26






  • 1




    @EricTowers I don't think we are communicating very well here. I find the three sentences in the above answer completely clear, unambiguous and correct. I have no idea what you mean by $f(G)$ acting on $S_n$. $f(G)$ is a subgroup of $S_n$, and is transitive with trivial stabilizers. There is no particular need to involve group actions in the above statements at all. You can define what it means for a subgroup of $S_n$ to be transitive without involving group actions.
    – Derek Holt
    Jun 26 at 19:01








  • 1




    To my mind (this is just the way I learnt the subject myself a long time ago) you have it the wrong way round. $S_n$ is by definition the group of all permutations of a set $X$ of size $n$. A subgroup $H$ of $S_n$ (which is called a permutation group) is transitive if for all $x,y in X$ there exists $g in H$ with $x^g=y$ (or $g(x)=y$ if you prefer). An action of a group $G$ on a set $X$ is a homomorphism $phi:G to {rm Sym}(X)$, and the action is transiitve if its image is a transitive subgroup of ${rm Sym}(X)$.
    – Derek Holt
    Jun 26 at 19:11
















5














Let $n=|G|$. Then the regular representation of $G$ is a homomorphism
$f:Gto S_n$ whose image is simply transitive. If $H$ is a proper subgroup
of $G$ then $f(H)$ is a non-transitive subgroup of $S_n$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Why do you believe $f(G)$ acts transitively on $f(G)$ but $f(H)$ does not act transitively on $f(H)$? Alternatively, unless $f$ is surjective, why do you believe your non-transitivity argument for $f(H)$ does not apply mutis mutandis to $f(G)$?
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 26 at 16:49








  • 3




    @EricTowers I can't make much sense of your question! $f(G)$ is a transitive subgroup of $S_n$ by standard properties of the regular representation, and $f(H)$ is intransitive when $H ne G$. I don't know what you mean by $f(H)$ acting on $f(H)$.
    – Derek Holt
    Jun 26 at 17:14










  • @DerekHolt : You and OP present the same imprecision. A group is transitive if its action is transitive. Action on what? Unless $f$ is surjective, $f(G)$ does not act transitively on $S_n$ and a proper subgroup of $f(G)$ will not either. So generically neither is transitive (although this can be forced for small enough $n$). The only other interpretation, the one begged by the second paragraph of the OP, is $f(G)$ acts on $f(G)$ and $f(H)$ acts on $f(H)$. Then Jyrki Lahtonen's comment applies, making both transitive.
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 26 at 17:26






  • 1




    @EricTowers I don't think we are communicating very well here. I find the three sentences in the above answer completely clear, unambiguous and correct. I have no idea what you mean by $f(G)$ acting on $S_n$. $f(G)$ is a subgroup of $S_n$, and is transitive with trivial stabilizers. There is no particular need to involve group actions in the above statements at all. You can define what it means for a subgroup of $S_n$ to be transitive without involving group actions.
    – Derek Holt
    Jun 26 at 19:01








  • 1




    To my mind (this is just the way I learnt the subject myself a long time ago) you have it the wrong way round. $S_n$ is by definition the group of all permutations of a set $X$ of size $n$. A subgroup $H$ of $S_n$ (which is called a permutation group) is transitive if for all $x,y in X$ there exists $g in H$ with $x^g=y$ (or $g(x)=y$ if you prefer). An action of a group $G$ on a set $X$ is a homomorphism $phi:G to {rm Sym}(X)$, and the action is transiitve if its image is a transitive subgroup of ${rm Sym}(X)$.
    – Derek Holt
    Jun 26 at 19:11














5












5








5






Let $n=|G|$. Then the regular representation of $G$ is a homomorphism
$f:Gto S_n$ whose image is simply transitive. If $H$ is a proper subgroup
of $G$ then $f(H)$ is a non-transitive subgroup of $S_n$.






share|cite|improve this answer












Let $n=|G|$. Then the regular representation of $G$ is a homomorphism
$f:Gto S_n$ whose image is simply transitive. If $H$ is a proper subgroup
of $G$ then $f(H)$ is a non-transitive subgroup of $S_n$.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Jun 26 at 16:44









Lord Shark the Unknown

101k958131




101k958131












  • Why do you believe $f(G)$ acts transitively on $f(G)$ but $f(H)$ does not act transitively on $f(H)$? Alternatively, unless $f$ is surjective, why do you believe your non-transitivity argument for $f(H)$ does not apply mutis mutandis to $f(G)$?
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 26 at 16:49








  • 3




    @EricTowers I can't make much sense of your question! $f(G)$ is a transitive subgroup of $S_n$ by standard properties of the regular representation, and $f(H)$ is intransitive when $H ne G$. I don't know what you mean by $f(H)$ acting on $f(H)$.
    – Derek Holt
    Jun 26 at 17:14










  • @DerekHolt : You and OP present the same imprecision. A group is transitive if its action is transitive. Action on what? Unless $f$ is surjective, $f(G)$ does not act transitively on $S_n$ and a proper subgroup of $f(G)$ will not either. So generically neither is transitive (although this can be forced for small enough $n$). The only other interpretation, the one begged by the second paragraph of the OP, is $f(G)$ acts on $f(G)$ and $f(H)$ acts on $f(H)$. Then Jyrki Lahtonen's comment applies, making both transitive.
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 26 at 17:26






  • 1




    @EricTowers I don't think we are communicating very well here. I find the three sentences in the above answer completely clear, unambiguous and correct. I have no idea what you mean by $f(G)$ acting on $S_n$. $f(G)$ is a subgroup of $S_n$, and is transitive with trivial stabilizers. There is no particular need to involve group actions in the above statements at all. You can define what it means for a subgroup of $S_n$ to be transitive without involving group actions.
    – Derek Holt
    Jun 26 at 19:01








  • 1




    To my mind (this is just the way I learnt the subject myself a long time ago) you have it the wrong way round. $S_n$ is by definition the group of all permutations of a set $X$ of size $n$. A subgroup $H$ of $S_n$ (which is called a permutation group) is transitive if for all $x,y in X$ there exists $g in H$ with $x^g=y$ (or $g(x)=y$ if you prefer). An action of a group $G$ on a set $X$ is a homomorphism $phi:G to {rm Sym}(X)$, and the action is transiitve if its image is a transitive subgroup of ${rm Sym}(X)$.
    – Derek Holt
    Jun 26 at 19:11


















  • Why do you believe $f(G)$ acts transitively on $f(G)$ but $f(H)$ does not act transitively on $f(H)$? Alternatively, unless $f$ is surjective, why do you believe your non-transitivity argument for $f(H)$ does not apply mutis mutandis to $f(G)$?
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 26 at 16:49








  • 3




    @EricTowers I can't make much sense of your question! $f(G)$ is a transitive subgroup of $S_n$ by standard properties of the regular representation, and $f(H)$ is intransitive when $H ne G$. I don't know what you mean by $f(H)$ acting on $f(H)$.
    – Derek Holt
    Jun 26 at 17:14










  • @DerekHolt : You and OP present the same imprecision. A group is transitive if its action is transitive. Action on what? Unless $f$ is surjective, $f(G)$ does not act transitively on $S_n$ and a proper subgroup of $f(G)$ will not either. So generically neither is transitive (although this can be forced for small enough $n$). The only other interpretation, the one begged by the second paragraph of the OP, is $f(G)$ acts on $f(G)$ and $f(H)$ acts on $f(H)$. Then Jyrki Lahtonen's comment applies, making both transitive.
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 26 at 17:26






  • 1




    @EricTowers I don't think we are communicating very well here. I find the three sentences in the above answer completely clear, unambiguous and correct. I have no idea what you mean by $f(G)$ acting on $S_n$. $f(G)$ is a subgroup of $S_n$, and is transitive with trivial stabilizers. There is no particular need to involve group actions in the above statements at all. You can define what it means for a subgroup of $S_n$ to be transitive without involving group actions.
    – Derek Holt
    Jun 26 at 19:01








  • 1




    To my mind (this is just the way I learnt the subject myself a long time ago) you have it the wrong way round. $S_n$ is by definition the group of all permutations of a set $X$ of size $n$. A subgroup $H$ of $S_n$ (which is called a permutation group) is transitive if for all $x,y in X$ there exists $g in H$ with $x^g=y$ (or $g(x)=y$ if you prefer). An action of a group $G$ on a set $X$ is a homomorphism $phi:G to {rm Sym}(X)$, and the action is transiitve if its image is a transitive subgroup of ${rm Sym}(X)$.
    – Derek Holt
    Jun 26 at 19:11
















Why do you believe $f(G)$ acts transitively on $f(G)$ but $f(H)$ does not act transitively on $f(H)$? Alternatively, unless $f$ is surjective, why do you believe your non-transitivity argument for $f(H)$ does not apply mutis mutandis to $f(G)$?
– Eric Towers
Jun 26 at 16:49






Why do you believe $f(G)$ acts transitively on $f(G)$ but $f(H)$ does not act transitively on $f(H)$? Alternatively, unless $f$ is surjective, why do you believe your non-transitivity argument for $f(H)$ does not apply mutis mutandis to $f(G)$?
– Eric Towers
Jun 26 at 16:49






3




3




@EricTowers I can't make much sense of your question! $f(G)$ is a transitive subgroup of $S_n$ by standard properties of the regular representation, and $f(H)$ is intransitive when $H ne G$. I don't know what you mean by $f(H)$ acting on $f(H)$.
– Derek Holt
Jun 26 at 17:14




@EricTowers I can't make much sense of your question! $f(G)$ is a transitive subgroup of $S_n$ by standard properties of the regular representation, and $f(H)$ is intransitive when $H ne G$. I don't know what you mean by $f(H)$ acting on $f(H)$.
– Derek Holt
Jun 26 at 17:14












@DerekHolt : You and OP present the same imprecision. A group is transitive if its action is transitive. Action on what? Unless $f$ is surjective, $f(G)$ does not act transitively on $S_n$ and a proper subgroup of $f(G)$ will not either. So generically neither is transitive (although this can be forced for small enough $n$). The only other interpretation, the one begged by the second paragraph of the OP, is $f(G)$ acts on $f(G)$ and $f(H)$ acts on $f(H)$. Then Jyrki Lahtonen's comment applies, making both transitive.
– Eric Towers
Jun 26 at 17:26




@DerekHolt : You and OP present the same imprecision. A group is transitive if its action is transitive. Action on what? Unless $f$ is surjective, $f(G)$ does not act transitively on $S_n$ and a proper subgroup of $f(G)$ will not either. So generically neither is transitive (although this can be forced for small enough $n$). The only other interpretation, the one begged by the second paragraph of the OP, is $f(G)$ acts on $f(G)$ and $f(H)$ acts on $f(H)$. Then Jyrki Lahtonen's comment applies, making both transitive.
– Eric Towers
Jun 26 at 17:26




1




1




@EricTowers I don't think we are communicating very well here. I find the three sentences in the above answer completely clear, unambiguous and correct. I have no idea what you mean by $f(G)$ acting on $S_n$. $f(G)$ is a subgroup of $S_n$, and is transitive with trivial stabilizers. There is no particular need to involve group actions in the above statements at all. You can define what it means for a subgroup of $S_n$ to be transitive without involving group actions.
– Derek Holt
Jun 26 at 19:01






@EricTowers I don't think we are communicating very well here. I find the three sentences in the above answer completely clear, unambiguous and correct. I have no idea what you mean by $f(G)$ acting on $S_n$. $f(G)$ is a subgroup of $S_n$, and is transitive with trivial stabilizers. There is no particular need to involve group actions in the above statements at all. You can define what it means for a subgroup of $S_n$ to be transitive without involving group actions.
– Derek Holt
Jun 26 at 19:01






1




1




To my mind (this is just the way I learnt the subject myself a long time ago) you have it the wrong way round. $S_n$ is by definition the group of all permutations of a set $X$ of size $n$. A subgroup $H$ of $S_n$ (which is called a permutation group) is transitive if for all $x,y in X$ there exists $g in H$ with $x^g=y$ (or $g(x)=y$ if you prefer). An action of a group $G$ on a set $X$ is a homomorphism $phi:G to {rm Sym}(X)$, and the action is transiitve if its image is a transitive subgroup of ${rm Sym}(X)$.
– Derek Holt
Jun 26 at 19:11




To my mind (this is just the way I learnt the subject myself a long time ago) you have it the wrong way round. $S_n$ is by definition the group of all permutations of a set $X$ of size $n$. A subgroup $H$ of $S_n$ (which is called a permutation group) is transitive if for all $x,y in X$ there exists $g in H$ with $x^g=y$ (or $g(x)=y$ if you prefer). An action of a group $G$ on a set $X$ is a homomorphism $phi:G to {rm Sym}(X)$, and the action is transiitve if its image is a transitive subgroup of ${rm Sym}(X)$.
– Derek Holt
Jun 26 at 19:11


















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