Proof that $mathbb{Q}(sqrt{2})cupmathbb{Q}(sqrt{3})$ is not a subfield of $mathbb{R}$
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Í already have found a proof About the statment which I did not understand, I will write it down, so maybe someone can explain me the part that I did not understand. But if there are easier ways to prove the statement I would be delighted to know.
$alpha:=sqrt{2}+sqrt{3}notin U:= mathbb{Q}(sqrt{2})cupmathbb{Q}(sqrt{3})iffalpha notin mathbb{Q}(sqrt{2})$ and $alpha notin mathbb{Q}(sqrt{3})$
Proof: $alpha notin mathbb{Q}(sqrt{2})$
Assume $exists_{r,sin mathbb{Q}}r+ssqrt{2}=sqrt{2}+sqrt{3}$
$iff sqrt{3}=r+(s-1)sqrt2$
$iff 3=r^2+2r(s-1)sqrt2+2(s-1)^2$
Which implicates $3=0$ or $sqrt3in mathbb{Q}$ or $sqrt{3/2}in mathbb{Q}$ or $sqrt{2}in mathbb{Q}$
I don't understand the last implication, I Need some help here.
Many Thanks
abstract-algebra
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
Í already have found a proof About the statment which I did not understand, I will write it down, so maybe someone can explain me the part that I did not understand. But if there are easier ways to prove the statement I would be delighted to know.
$alpha:=sqrt{2}+sqrt{3}notin U:= mathbb{Q}(sqrt{2})cupmathbb{Q}(sqrt{3})iffalpha notin mathbb{Q}(sqrt{2})$ and $alpha notin mathbb{Q}(sqrt{3})$
Proof: $alpha notin mathbb{Q}(sqrt{2})$
Assume $exists_{r,sin mathbb{Q}}r+ssqrt{2}=sqrt{2}+sqrt{3}$
$iff sqrt{3}=r+(s-1)sqrt2$
$iff 3=r^2+2r(s-1)sqrt2+2(s-1)^2$
Which implicates $3=0$ or $sqrt3in mathbb{Q}$ or $sqrt{3/2}in mathbb{Q}$ or $sqrt{2}in mathbb{Q}$
I don't understand the last implication, I Need some help here.
Many Thanks
abstract-algebra
I would really like to understand the last implication
– RM777
15 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
Í already have found a proof About the statment which I did not understand, I will write it down, so maybe someone can explain me the part that I did not understand. But if there are easier ways to prove the statement I would be delighted to know.
$alpha:=sqrt{2}+sqrt{3}notin U:= mathbb{Q}(sqrt{2})cupmathbb{Q}(sqrt{3})iffalpha notin mathbb{Q}(sqrt{2})$ and $alpha notin mathbb{Q}(sqrt{3})$
Proof: $alpha notin mathbb{Q}(sqrt{2})$
Assume $exists_{r,sin mathbb{Q}}r+ssqrt{2}=sqrt{2}+sqrt{3}$
$iff sqrt{3}=r+(s-1)sqrt2$
$iff 3=r^2+2r(s-1)sqrt2+2(s-1)^2$
Which implicates $3=0$ or $sqrt3in mathbb{Q}$ or $sqrt{3/2}in mathbb{Q}$ or $sqrt{2}in mathbb{Q}$
I don't understand the last implication, I Need some help here.
Many Thanks
abstract-algebra
Í already have found a proof About the statment which I did not understand, I will write it down, so maybe someone can explain me the part that I did not understand. But if there are easier ways to prove the statement I would be delighted to know.
$alpha:=sqrt{2}+sqrt{3}notin U:= mathbb{Q}(sqrt{2})cupmathbb{Q}(sqrt{3})iffalpha notin mathbb{Q}(sqrt{2})$ and $alpha notin mathbb{Q}(sqrt{3})$
Proof: $alpha notin mathbb{Q}(sqrt{2})$
Assume $exists_{r,sin mathbb{Q}}r+ssqrt{2}=sqrt{2}+sqrt{3}$
$iff sqrt{3}=r+(s-1)sqrt2$
$iff 3=r^2+2r(s-1)sqrt2+2(s-1)^2$
Which implicates $3=0$ or $sqrt3in mathbb{Q}$ or $sqrt{3/2}in mathbb{Q}$ or $sqrt{2}in mathbb{Q}$
I don't understand the last implication, I Need some help here.
Many Thanks
abstract-algebra
abstract-algebra
asked 15 hours ago
RM777
1158
1158
I would really like to understand the last implication
– RM777
15 hours ago
add a comment |
I would really like to understand the last implication
– RM777
15 hours ago
I would really like to understand the last implication
– RM777
15 hours ago
I would really like to understand the last implication
– RM777
15 hours ago
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
We know that any element of $mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$ can be uniquely written as $a + b sqrt{2}$ with $a, b in mathbb{Q}$ (the unicity is important). So, if $alpha in mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$, then so does $alpha - sqrt{2} = sqrt{3} in mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$. So you can write $sqrt{3} = r + s sqrt{2}$. Squaring that equality, we get
$$3 = (r^2 + 2 s^2) + 2rs sqrt{2} $$
By unicity, the number $3$ can be uniquely written as $3 + 0 sqrt{2}$, so in the right hand side we get $r^2 + 2 s^2 = 3$ and $2rs=0$. From $rs = 0$ we get that $r=0$ or $s = 0$. If $s=0$, then $r^2 = 3$, which is impossible since $r$ is rational. And if $r = 0$, then $2s^2=3$ so $s^2 = frac{3}{2}$, which is also impossible since $s$ is rational. So in summary, $sqrt{3}$ is not in $mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Well, $alphanotin {Bbb Q}(sqrt 2)$ is equivalent to $sqrt 3notin {Bbb Q}(sqrt 2)$.
On the contrary, $sqrt 3 = a+bsqrt 2$ for some rational numbers $a,b$. Squaring gives $3 = a^2+2absqrt 2 + 2b^2$. Then $sqrt 2$ could be written as a rational number, which is impossible as it is irrational.
This only holds if you assume $ab ne 0$. You still have to consider the case $ab=0$ and derive a contradiction from that.
– Joel Cohen
14 hours ago
Indeed, but the cases either $a=0$ or $b=0$ are easy.
– Wuestenfux
14 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Me neither - but if $r(s-1) neq 0$ you can rewrite the last equation to obtain $$mathbb{Q} ni frac{3-r^2-2(s-1)^2}{2r(s-1)} = sqrt{2} notin mathbb{Q},$$ a contradiction. If $s=1$ we have $3=r^2$, if $r=0$ the equation reads $3=2(s-1)^2$ - both is impossible because of the uniqueness of prime factorization.
You have to assume that $r(s-1) ne 0$ to do that. Which then leaves the case $r(s-1) = 0$ to be considered.
– Joel Cohen
14 hours ago
You're right of course, edited my answer.
– Stockfish
11 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Instead of that just try to check is this $U:=mathbb{Q}(sqrt 2)cup mathbb{Q}(sqrt 3)$ a Group?
Let us take $sqrt2,sqrt3in U$ [Both exists] but $sqrt2+sqrt3notin U$.
So definitely it cannot be a Subfield of $mathbb{R}$.
Yes that's exactly what I want to prove $sqrt2+sqrt3notin U $
– RM777
15 hours ago
Alright! Note that: $sqrt3notinmathbb{Q}(sqrt2)={a+bsqrt2:a,binmathbb{Q}}$ and so $sqrt2+sqrt3notinmathbb{Q}(sqrt2)$ Further, if we assume $sqrt3=a+bsqrt2$ the $3=a^2+2b^2$ and $2ab=0$ gives the contradiction.
– Sujit Bhattacharyya
15 hours ago
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
We know that any element of $mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$ can be uniquely written as $a + b sqrt{2}$ with $a, b in mathbb{Q}$ (the unicity is important). So, if $alpha in mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$, then so does $alpha - sqrt{2} = sqrt{3} in mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$. So you can write $sqrt{3} = r + s sqrt{2}$. Squaring that equality, we get
$$3 = (r^2 + 2 s^2) + 2rs sqrt{2} $$
By unicity, the number $3$ can be uniquely written as $3 + 0 sqrt{2}$, so in the right hand side we get $r^2 + 2 s^2 = 3$ and $2rs=0$. From $rs = 0$ we get that $r=0$ or $s = 0$. If $s=0$, then $r^2 = 3$, which is impossible since $r$ is rational. And if $r = 0$, then $2s^2=3$ so $s^2 = frac{3}{2}$, which is also impossible since $s$ is rational. So in summary, $sqrt{3}$ is not in $mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
We know that any element of $mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$ can be uniquely written as $a + b sqrt{2}$ with $a, b in mathbb{Q}$ (the unicity is important). So, if $alpha in mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$, then so does $alpha - sqrt{2} = sqrt{3} in mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$. So you can write $sqrt{3} = r + s sqrt{2}$. Squaring that equality, we get
$$3 = (r^2 + 2 s^2) + 2rs sqrt{2} $$
By unicity, the number $3$ can be uniquely written as $3 + 0 sqrt{2}$, so in the right hand side we get $r^2 + 2 s^2 = 3$ and $2rs=0$. From $rs = 0$ we get that $r=0$ or $s = 0$. If $s=0$, then $r^2 = 3$, which is impossible since $r$ is rational. And if $r = 0$, then $2s^2=3$ so $s^2 = frac{3}{2}$, which is also impossible since $s$ is rational. So in summary, $sqrt{3}$ is not in $mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
We know that any element of $mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$ can be uniquely written as $a + b sqrt{2}$ with $a, b in mathbb{Q}$ (the unicity is important). So, if $alpha in mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$, then so does $alpha - sqrt{2} = sqrt{3} in mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$. So you can write $sqrt{3} = r + s sqrt{2}$. Squaring that equality, we get
$$3 = (r^2 + 2 s^2) + 2rs sqrt{2} $$
By unicity, the number $3$ can be uniquely written as $3 + 0 sqrt{2}$, so in the right hand side we get $r^2 + 2 s^2 = 3$ and $2rs=0$. From $rs = 0$ we get that $r=0$ or $s = 0$. If $s=0$, then $r^2 = 3$, which is impossible since $r$ is rational. And if $r = 0$, then $2s^2=3$ so $s^2 = frac{3}{2}$, which is also impossible since $s$ is rational. So in summary, $sqrt{3}$ is not in $mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$.
We know that any element of $mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$ can be uniquely written as $a + b sqrt{2}$ with $a, b in mathbb{Q}$ (the unicity is important). So, if $alpha in mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$, then so does $alpha - sqrt{2} = sqrt{3} in mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$. So you can write $sqrt{3} = r + s sqrt{2}$. Squaring that equality, we get
$$3 = (r^2 + 2 s^2) + 2rs sqrt{2} $$
By unicity, the number $3$ can be uniquely written as $3 + 0 sqrt{2}$, so in the right hand side we get $r^2 + 2 s^2 = 3$ and $2rs=0$. From $rs = 0$ we get that $r=0$ or $s = 0$. If $s=0$, then $r^2 = 3$, which is impossible since $r$ is rational. And if $r = 0$, then $2s^2=3$ so $s^2 = frac{3}{2}$, which is also impossible since $s$ is rational. So in summary, $sqrt{3}$ is not in $mathbb{Q}[sqrt{2}]$.
answered 15 hours ago
Joel Cohen
7,24412037
7,24412037
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Well, $alphanotin {Bbb Q}(sqrt 2)$ is equivalent to $sqrt 3notin {Bbb Q}(sqrt 2)$.
On the contrary, $sqrt 3 = a+bsqrt 2$ for some rational numbers $a,b$. Squaring gives $3 = a^2+2absqrt 2 + 2b^2$. Then $sqrt 2$ could be written as a rational number, which is impossible as it is irrational.
This only holds if you assume $ab ne 0$. You still have to consider the case $ab=0$ and derive a contradiction from that.
– Joel Cohen
14 hours ago
Indeed, but the cases either $a=0$ or $b=0$ are easy.
– Wuestenfux
14 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Well, $alphanotin {Bbb Q}(sqrt 2)$ is equivalent to $sqrt 3notin {Bbb Q}(sqrt 2)$.
On the contrary, $sqrt 3 = a+bsqrt 2$ for some rational numbers $a,b$. Squaring gives $3 = a^2+2absqrt 2 + 2b^2$. Then $sqrt 2$ could be written as a rational number, which is impossible as it is irrational.
This only holds if you assume $ab ne 0$. You still have to consider the case $ab=0$ and derive a contradiction from that.
– Joel Cohen
14 hours ago
Indeed, but the cases either $a=0$ or $b=0$ are easy.
– Wuestenfux
14 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Well, $alphanotin {Bbb Q}(sqrt 2)$ is equivalent to $sqrt 3notin {Bbb Q}(sqrt 2)$.
On the contrary, $sqrt 3 = a+bsqrt 2$ for some rational numbers $a,b$. Squaring gives $3 = a^2+2absqrt 2 + 2b^2$. Then $sqrt 2$ could be written as a rational number, which is impossible as it is irrational.
Well, $alphanotin {Bbb Q}(sqrt 2)$ is equivalent to $sqrt 3notin {Bbb Q}(sqrt 2)$.
On the contrary, $sqrt 3 = a+bsqrt 2$ for some rational numbers $a,b$. Squaring gives $3 = a^2+2absqrt 2 + 2b^2$. Then $sqrt 2$ could be written as a rational number, which is impossible as it is irrational.
answered 15 hours ago
Wuestenfux
2,6621410
2,6621410
This only holds if you assume $ab ne 0$. You still have to consider the case $ab=0$ and derive a contradiction from that.
– Joel Cohen
14 hours ago
Indeed, but the cases either $a=0$ or $b=0$ are easy.
– Wuestenfux
14 hours ago
add a comment |
This only holds if you assume $ab ne 0$. You still have to consider the case $ab=0$ and derive a contradiction from that.
– Joel Cohen
14 hours ago
Indeed, but the cases either $a=0$ or $b=0$ are easy.
– Wuestenfux
14 hours ago
This only holds if you assume $ab ne 0$. You still have to consider the case $ab=0$ and derive a contradiction from that.
– Joel Cohen
14 hours ago
This only holds if you assume $ab ne 0$. You still have to consider the case $ab=0$ and derive a contradiction from that.
– Joel Cohen
14 hours ago
Indeed, but the cases either $a=0$ or $b=0$ are easy.
– Wuestenfux
14 hours ago
Indeed, but the cases either $a=0$ or $b=0$ are easy.
– Wuestenfux
14 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Me neither - but if $r(s-1) neq 0$ you can rewrite the last equation to obtain $$mathbb{Q} ni frac{3-r^2-2(s-1)^2}{2r(s-1)} = sqrt{2} notin mathbb{Q},$$ a contradiction. If $s=1$ we have $3=r^2$, if $r=0$ the equation reads $3=2(s-1)^2$ - both is impossible because of the uniqueness of prime factorization.
You have to assume that $r(s-1) ne 0$ to do that. Which then leaves the case $r(s-1) = 0$ to be considered.
– Joel Cohen
14 hours ago
You're right of course, edited my answer.
– Stockfish
11 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Me neither - but if $r(s-1) neq 0$ you can rewrite the last equation to obtain $$mathbb{Q} ni frac{3-r^2-2(s-1)^2}{2r(s-1)} = sqrt{2} notin mathbb{Q},$$ a contradiction. If $s=1$ we have $3=r^2$, if $r=0$ the equation reads $3=2(s-1)^2$ - both is impossible because of the uniqueness of prime factorization.
You have to assume that $r(s-1) ne 0$ to do that. Which then leaves the case $r(s-1) = 0$ to be considered.
– Joel Cohen
14 hours ago
You're right of course, edited my answer.
– Stockfish
11 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Me neither - but if $r(s-1) neq 0$ you can rewrite the last equation to obtain $$mathbb{Q} ni frac{3-r^2-2(s-1)^2}{2r(s-1)} = sqrt{2} notin mathbb{Q},$$ a contradiction. If $s=1$ we have $3=r^2$, if $r=0$ the equation reads $3=2(s-1)^2$ - both is impossible because of the uniqueness of prime factorization.
Me neither - but if $r(s-1) neq 0$ you can rewrite the last equation to obtain $$mathbb{Q} ni frac{3-r^2-2(s-1)^2}{2r(s-1)} = sqrt{2} notin mathbb{Q},$$ a contradiction. If $s=1$ we have $3=r^2$, if $r=0$ the equation reads $3=2(s-1)^2$ - both is impossible because of the uniqueness of prime factorization.
edited 11 hours ago
answered 15 hours ago
Stockfish
44726
44726
You have to assume that $r(s-1) ne 0$ to do that. Which then leaves the case $r(s-1) = 0$ to be considered.
– Joel Cohen
14 hours ago
You're right of course, edited my answer.
– Stockfish
11 hours ago
add a comment |
You have to assume that $r(s-1) ne 0$ to do that. Which then leaves the case $r(s-1) = 0$ to be considered.
– Joel Cohen
14 hours ago
You're right of course, edited my answer.
– Stockfish
11 hours ago
You have to assume that $r(s-1) ne 0$ to do that. Which then leaves the case $r(s-1) = 0$ to be considered.
– Joel Cohen
14 hours ago
You have to assume that $r(s-1) ne 0$ to do that. Which then leaves the case $r(s-1) = 0$ to be considered.
– Joel Cohen
14 hours ago
You're right of course, edited my answer.
– Stockfish
11 hours ago
You're right of course, edited my answer.
– Stockfish
11 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Instead of that just try to check is this $U:=mathbb{Q}(sqrt 2)cup mathbb{Q}(sqrt 3)$ a Group?
Let us take $sqrt2,sqrt3in U$ [Both exists] but $sqrt2+sqrt3notin U$.
So definitely it cannot be a Subfield of $mathbb{R}$.
Yes that's exactly what I want to prove $sqrt2+sqrt3notin U $
– RM777
15 hours ago
Alright! Note that: $sqrt3notinmathbb{Q}(sqrt2)={a+bsqrt2:a,binmathbb{Q}}$ and so $sqrt2+sqrt3notinmathbb{Q}(sqrt2)$ Further, if we assume $sqrt3=a+bsqrt2$ the $3=a^2+2b^2$ and $2ab=0$ gives the contradiction.
– Sujit Bhattacharyya
15 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Instead of that just try to check is this $U:=mathbb{Q}(sqrt 2)cup mathbb{Q}(sqrt 3)$ a Group?
Let us take $sqrt2,sqrt3in U$ [Both exists] but $sqrt2+sqrt3notin U$.
So definitely it cannot be a Subfield of $mathbb{R}$.
Yes that's exactly what I want to prove $sqrt2+sqrt3notin U $
– RM777
15 hours ago
Alright! Note that: $sqrt3notinmathbb{Q}(sqrt2)={a+bsqrt2:a,binmathbb{Q}}$ and so $sqrt2+sqrt3notinmathbb{Q}(sqrt2)$ Further, if we assume $sqrt3=a+bsqrt2$ the $3=a^2+2b^2$ and $2ab=0$ gives the contradiction.
– Sujit Bhattacharyya
15 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Instead of that just try to check is this $U:=mathbb{Q}(sqrt 2)cup mathbb{Q}(sqrt 3)$ a Group?
Let us take $sqrt2,sqrt3in U$ [Both exists] but $sqrt2+sqrt3notin U$.
So definitely it cannot be a Subfield of $mathbb{R}$.
Instead of that just try to check is this $U:=mathbb{Q}(sqrt 2)cup mathbb{Q}(sqrt 3)$ a Group?
Let us take $sqrt2,sqrt3in U$ [Both exists] but $sqrt2+sqrt3notin U$.
So definitely it cannot be a Subfield of $mathbb{R}$.
answered 15 hours ago
Sujit Bhattacharyya
883316
883316
Yes that's exactly what I want to prove $sqrt2+sqrt3notin U $
– RM777
15 hours ago
Alright! Note that: $sqrt3notinmathbb{Q}(sqrt2)={a+bsqrt2:a,binmathbb{Q}}$ and so $sqrt2+sqrt3notinmathbb{Q}(sqrt2)$ Further, if we assume $sqrt3=a+bsqrt2$ the $3=a^2+2b^2$ and $2ab=0$ gives the contradiction.
– Sujit Bhattacharyya
15 hours ago
add a comment |
Yes that's exactly what I want to prove $sqrt2+sqrt3notin U $
– RM777
15 hours ago
Alright! Note that: $sqrt3notinmathbb{Q}(sqrt2)={a+bsqrt2:a,binmathbb{Q}}$ and so $sqrt2+sqrt3notinmathbb{Q}(sqrt2)$ Further, if we assume $sqrt3=a+bsqrt2$ the $3=a^2+2b^2$ and $2ab=0$ gives the contradiction.
– Sujit Bhattacharyya
15 hours ago
Yes that's exactly what I want to prove $sqrt2+sqrt3notin U $
– RM777
15 hours ago
Yes that's exactly what I want to prove $sqrt2+sqrt3notin U $
– RM777
15 hours ago
Alright! Note that: $sqrt3notinmathbb{Q}(sqrt2)={a+bsqrt2:a,binmathbb{Q}}$ and so $sqrt2+sqrt3notinmathbb{Q}(sqrt2)$ Further, if we assume $sqrt3=a+bsqrt2$ the $3=a^2+2b^2$ and $2ab=0$ gives the contradiction.
– Sujit Bhattacharyya
15 hours ago
Alright! Note that: $sqrt3notinmathbb{Q}(sqrt2)={a+bsqrt2:a,binmathbb{Q}}$ and so $sqrt2+sqrt3notinmathbb{Q}(sqrt2)$ Further, if we assume $sqrt3=a+bsqrt2$ the $3=a^2+2b^2$ and $2ab=0$ gives the contradiction.
– Sujit Bhattacharyya
15 hours ago
add a comment |
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I would really like to understand the last implication
– RM777
15 hours ago