$sup(Asetminus{z}) = sup(A)$ other direction and generalisation.











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Let A be a nonempty set, such that $zin A$ and $sup(A) not in A$




(a) $sup(A setminus {z}) = sup(A)$



(b) generalise this to $sup(A setminus {z_1 z_2 z_3 dots z_n})=sup(A)$




Let us denote $A$ with $z$ removed by $B$



For the first part I know that removing a point from $A$ can only really lower the supremum, because we might remove the right "end point", so the only possibility for $sup(B)$ is that $sup(B) leq sup(A)$, we can also see this via this formal argument:



Let $y in A $, but $y neq z$, then we have that $y leq sup (B)$, but certainly we have that $yin B$ so now this is an upper bound for $B$, since $sup(B)$ is the lowest of bounds for $B$, we have:
$$ sup(B) leq sup(A)$$



I fail so see the other direction, the problem is if we start out with an arbitrary element of $B$ is that we cannot say anything about $z$, at least I don't see this.



For (b) we simply solve this by induction on $n$, here is a rough sketch, I think this approach is fine, but correct me if I am wrong:



Our base case will hold by question (a), our inductive hypothesis generalises this for arbitrary $k in mathbb{N} $ to $A setminus {z_1,z_2,dots,z_k}$ and then for our inductive step we first consider $A setminus {z_1,z_2,dots,z_k }=C $ this is useful notation to make things shorter.



We can now write that: $sup(Csetminus{z_{k+1}})=sup(C)$ by question $(a)$,



We now use our inductive hypothesis ($sup(C)=sup(A)$) and state that: $$sup(Asetminus{z_1,z_2,dots,z_k,z_{k+1}})= sup(Csetminus{z_{k+1}})=sup(C)=sup(A)$$
By the principle of mathematical induction the desired relation holds. $square$










share|cite|improve this question




























    up vote
    1
    down vote

    favorite












    Let A be a nonempty set, such that $zin A$ and $sup(A) not in A$




    (a) $sup(A setminus {z}) = sup(A)$



    (b) generalise this to $sup(A setminus {z_1 z_2 z_3 dots z_n})=sup(A)$




    Let us denote $A$ with $z$ removed by $B$



    For the first part I know that removing a point from $A$ can only really lower the supremum, because we might remove the right "end point", so the only possibility for $sup(B)$ is that $sup(B) leq sup(A)$, we can also see this via this formal argument:



    Let $y in A $, but $y neq z$, then we have that $y leq sup (B)$, but certainly we have that $yin B$ so now this is an upper bound for $B$, since $sup(B)$ is the lowest of bounds for $B$, we have:
    $$ sup(B) leq sup(A)$$



    I fail so see the other direction, the problem is if we start out with an arbitrary element of $B$ is that we cannot say anything about $z$, at least I don't see this.



    For (b) we simply solve this by induction on $n$, here is a rough sketch, I think this approach is fine, but correct me if I am wrong:



    Our base case will hold by question (a), our inductive hypothesis generalises this for arbitrary $k in mathbb{N} $ to $A setminus {z_1,z_2,dots,z_k}$ and then for our inductive step we first consider $A setminus {z_1,z_2,dots,z_k }=C $ this is useful notation to make things shorter.



    We can now write that: $sup(Csetminus{z_{k+1}})=sup(C)$ by question $(a)$,



    We now use our inductive hypothesis ($sup(C)=sup(A)$) and state that: $$sup(Asetminus{z_1,z_2,dots,z_k,z_{k+1}})= sup(Csetminus{z_{k+1}})=sup(C)=sup(A)$$
    By the principle of mathematical induction the desired relation holds. $square$










    share|cite|improve this question


























      up vote
      1
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      1
      down vote

      favorite











      Let A be a nonempty set, such that $zin A$ and $sup(A) not in A$




      (a) $sup(A setminus {z}) = sup(A)$



      (b) generalise this to $sup(A setminus {z_1 z_2 z_3 dots z_n})=sup(A)$




      Let us denote $A$ with $z$ removed by $B$



      For the first part I know that removing a point from $A$ can only really lower the supremum, because we might remove the right "end point", so the only possibility for $sup(B)$ is that $sup(B) leq sup(A)$, we can also see this via this formal argument:



      Let $y in A $, but $y neq z$, then we have that $y leq sup (B)$, but certainly we have that $yin B$ so now this is an upper bound for $B$, since $sup(B)$ is the lowest of bounds for $B$, we have:
      $$ sup(B) leq sup(A)$$



      I fail so see the other direction, the problem is if we start out with an arbitrary element of $B$ is that we cannot say anything about $z$, at least I don't see this.



      For (b) we simply solve this by induction on $n$, here is a rough sketch, I think this approach is fine, but correct me if I am wrong:



      Our base case will hold by question (a), our inductive hypothesis generalises this for arbitrary $k in mathbb{N} $ to $A setminus {z_1,z_2,dots,z_k}$ and then for our inductive step we first consider $A setminus {z_1,z_2,dots,z_k }=C $ this is useful notation to make things shorter.



      We can now write that: $sup(Csetminus{z_{k+1}})=sup(C)$ by question $(a)$,



      We now use our inductive hypothesis ($sup(C)=sup(A)$) and state that: $$sup(Asetminus{z_1,z_2,dots,z_k,z_{k+1}})= sup(Csetminus{z_{k+1}})=sup(C)=sup(A)$$
      By the principle of mathematical induction the desired relation holds. $square$










      share|cite|improve this question















      Let A be a nonempty set, such that $zin A$ and $sup(A) not in A$




      (a) $sup(A setminus {z}) = sup(A)$



      (b) generalise this to $sup(A setminus {z_1 z_2 z_3 dots z_n})=sup(A)$




      Let us denote $A$ with $z$ removed by $B$



      For the first part I know that removing a point from $A$ can only really lower the supremum, because we might remove the right "end point", so the only possibility for $sup(B)$ is that $sup(B) leq sup(A)$, we can also see this via this formal argument:



      Let $y in A $, but $y neq z$, then we have that $y leq sup (B)$, but certainly we have that $yin B$ so now this is an upper bound for $B$, since $sup(B)$ is the lowest of bounds for $B$, we have:
      $$ sup(B) leq sup(A)$$



      I fail so see the other direction, the problem is if we start out with an arbitrary element of $B$ is that we cannot say anything about $z$, at least I don't see this.



      For (b) we simply solve this by induction on $n$, here is a rough sketch, I think this approach is fine, but correct me if I am wrong:



      Our base case will hold by question (a), our inductive hypothesis generalises this for arbitrary $k in mathbb{N} $ to $A setminus {z_1,z_2,dots,z_k}$ and then for our inductive step we first consider $A setminus {z_1,z_2,dots,z_k }=C $ this is useful notation to make things shorter.



      We can now write that: $sup(Csetminus{z_{k+1}})=sup(C)$ by question $(a)$,



      We now use our inductive hypothesis ($sup(C)=sup(A)$) and state that: $$sup(Asetminus{z_1,z_2,dots,z_k,z_{k+1}})= sup(Csetminus{z_{k+1}})=sup(C)=sup(A)$$
      By the principle of mathematical induction the desired relation holds. $square$







      real-analysis supremum-and-infimum






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      edited Dec 1 at 13:54









      user10354138

      6,5701623




      6,5701623










      asked Dec 1 at 13:47









      WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo

      1,163322




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          1 Answer
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          Suppose that $sup(B)<sup(A)$. Then, take $xin A$ such that $sup(B)<x<sup(A)$ (We can do it by definition of $sup$ and because $sup(A)notin A$). Then, we have that $xnotin B$ hence $x$ must be $z$. But it is impossible because it would imply that $z=sup(A)$. Then, we have that $sup(A)=sup(B)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • clever, just suppose it does not and we get a contradiction. I often forget contradiction as an approach - thanks for reminding me.
            – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
            Dec 1 at 14:27










          • I feel with every bit of steering in the right direction I'm becoming better at analysis, thank you :)
            – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
            Dec 1 at 14:27










          • @WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo You are welcome.
            – Gödel
            Dec 1 at 14:30











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          accepted










          Suppose that $sup(B)<sup(A)$. Then, take $xin A$ such that $sup(B)<x<sup(A)$ (We can do it by definition of $sup$ and because $sup(A)notin A$). Then, we have that $xnotin B$ hence $x$ must be $z$. But it is impossible because it would imply that $z=sup(A)$. Then, we have that $sup(A)=sup(B)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • clever, just suppose it does not and we get a contradiction. I often forget contradiction as an approach - thanks for reminding me.
            – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
            Dec 1 at 14:27










          • I feel with every bit of steering in the right direction I'm becoming better at analysis, thank you :)
            – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
            Dec 1 at 14:27










          • @WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo You are welcome.
            – Gödel
            Dec 1 at 14:30















          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted










          Suppose that $sup(B)<sup(A)$. Then, take $xin A$ such that $sup(B)<x<sup(A)$ (We can do it by definition of $sup$ and because $sup(A)notin A$). Then, we have that $xnotin B$ hence $x$ must be $z$. But it is impossible because it would imply that $z=sup(A)$. Then, we have that $sup(A)=sup(B)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • clever, just suppose it does not and we get a contradiction. I often forget contradiction as an approach - thanks for reminding me.
            – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
            Dec 1 at 14:27










          • I feel with every bit of steering in the right direction I'm becoming better at analysis, thank you :)
            – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
            Dec 1 at 14:27










          • @WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo You are welcome.
            – Gödel
            Dec 1 at 14:30













          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted






          Suppose that $sup(B)<sup(A)$. Then, take $xin A$ such that $sup(B)<x<sup(A)$ (We can do it by definition of $sup$ and because $sup(A)notin A$). Then, we have that $xnotin B$ hence $x$ must be $z$. But it is impossible because it would imply that $z=sup(A)$. Then, we have that $sup(A)=sup(B)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer












          Suppose that $sup(B)<sup(A)$. Then, take $xin A$ such that $sup(B)<x<sup(A)$ (We can do it by definition of $sup$ and because $sup(A)notin A$). Then, we have that $xnotin B$ hence $x$ must be $z$. But it is impossible because it would imply that $z=sup(A)$. Then, we have that $sup(A)=sup(B)$.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Dec 1 at 14:07









          Gödel

          1,393319




          1,393319












          • clever, just suppose it does not and we get a contradiction. I often forget contradiction as an approach - thanks for reminding me.
            – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
            Dec 1 at 14:27










          • I feel with every bit of steering in the right direction I'm becoming better at analysis, thank you :)
            – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
            Dec 1 at 14:27










          • @WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo You are welcome.
            – Gödel
            Dec 1 at 14:30


















          • clever, just suppose it does not and we get a contradiction. I often forget contradiction as an approach - thanks for reminding me.
            – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
            Dec 1 at 14:27










          • I feel with every bit of steering in the right direction I'm becoming better at analysis, thank you :)
            – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
            Dec 1 at 14:27










          • @WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo You are welcome.
            – Gödel
            Dec 1 at 14:30
















          clever, just suppose it does not and we get a contradiction. I often forget contradiction as an approach - thanks for reminding me.
          – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
          Dec 1 at 14:27




          clever, just suppose it does not and we get a contradiction. I often forget contradiction as an approach - thanks for reminding me.
          – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
          Dec 1 at 14:27












          I feel with every bit of steering in the right direction I'm becoming better at analysis, thank you :)
          – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
          Dec 1 at 14:27




          I feel with every bit of steering in the right direction I'm becoming better at analysis, thank you :)
          – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
          Dec 1 at 14:27












          @WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo You are welcome.
          – Gödel
          Dec 1 at 14:30




          @WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo You are welcome.
          – Gödel
          Dec 1 at 14:30


















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