When should I use RAA in natural deduction proofs?
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I can't understand exactly when should I use RAA (reductio ad absurdum) rule in natural deduction proofs? What situation should "trigger" me to think "Now it's time to use RAA"?
logic proof-theory natural-deduction formal-proofs
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I can't understand exactly when should I use RAA (reductio ad absurdum) rule in natural deduction proofs? What situation should "trigger" me to think "Now it's time to use RAA"?
logic proof-theory natural-deduction formal-proofs
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2
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When you have no other strategies available... then try RAA.
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– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
Jan 2 at 12:09
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Do you include also "non invertible rules" in available strategies?
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 2 at 12:14
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I can't understand exactly when should I use RAA (reductio ad absurdum) rule in natural deduction proofs? What situation should "trigger" me to think "Now it's time to use RAA"?
logic proof-theory natural-deduction formal-proofs
$endgroup$
I can't understand exactly when should I use RAA (reductio ad absurdum) rule in natural deduction proofs? What situation should "trigger" me to think "Now it's time to use RAA"?
logic proof-theory natural-deduction formal-proofs
logic proof-theory natural-deduction formal-proofs
edited Jan 2 at 18:48
Taroccoesbrocco
5,64271840
5,64271840
asked Jan 2 at 11:51
MaicakeMaicake
715
715
2
$begingroup$
When you have no other strategies available... then try RAA.
$endgroup$
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
Jan 2 at 12:09
$begingroup$
Do you include also "non invertible rules" in available strategies?
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 2 at 12:14
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
When you have no other strategies available... then try RAA.
$endgroup$
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
Jan 2 at 12:09
$begingroup$
Do you include also "non invertible rules" in available strategies?
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 2 at 12:14
2
2
$begingroup$
When you have no other strategies available... then try RAA.
$endgroup$
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
Jan 2 at 12:09
$begingroup$
When you have no other strategies available... then try RAA.
$endgroup$
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
Jan 2 at 12:09
$begingroup$
Do you include also "non invertible rules" in available strategies?
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 2 at 12:14
$begingroup$
Do you include also "non invertible rules" in available strategies?
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 2 at 12:14
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
What situation should "trigger" me to think "Now it's time to use RAA"?
I can think of $4$ explicit situations:
Your goal is the negation of something. If you goal is $neg varphi$, assume $varphi$ and see if you can get a contradiction
Your goal is some atomic statement $P$: Assume $neg P$, get a contradiction, get $neg neg P$ using RAA, and finally derive $P$ from $neg neg P$ (classical logics typically have a $neg Elim$ rule for this)
Your goal is a disjunction $varphi lor psi$ ... and you don't have any disjunction that you can work with (if you do have a disjunction, set up a $lor Elim$ on that one.). The nice thing about doing an RAA here is that once you assume $neg ( varphi lor psi)$, you should be able to derive both $neg varphi$ and $neg psi$ (using two RAA proofs themselves!), and now you have some useful stuff to work with on your way to a contradiction.
Your goal is an existential $exists x varphi(x)$ ... and you don't have some other existential to work with (if you do have another existential, set up a $lor Elim$ on that one.). So here the assumption will be $neg exists x varphi(x)$ which, with a bit of work (and probably another RAA inside) should allow you to prove $forall x neg varphi(x)$ ... and that will be useful to try and get to a contradiction given whatever else you have.
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$begingroup$
Great answer thanks. Point 3 remembered me that the exclude middle proof use RAA in this way.
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 9:47
$begingroup$
Can I ask you if this is the case . I have to proof {A => (-B or C), C=> B, D=> B} -> B or -(A and B) but I'm struggling to do it.
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 12:02
$begingroup$
@Maicake Your goal is a disjunction ... and you don't have a disjunction to work with? Sounds like a job for RAA! That is, assume the negation of that, and see if that leads to a contradiction. Also, from the negation of that you can quickly infer $neg B$ as well as $A land B$ .... from which the contradiction almost immediately follows .... so you're not even using any of the premises ... are you sure you wrote that out correctly?
$endgroup$
– Bram28
Jan 3 at 14:28
$begingroup$
I solved it using Exclude Middle rule as first move. How can you infer (using natural deduction steps) infer -B and A / B from -(B / -(A and B)) ?
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 14:33
$begingroup$
@Maicake For ~B: OK, that's a negation .... sounds like a job for ... RAA! So, assume B. Then by v Intro you get B v ~(A & B), and that contradicts ~(B v ~(A & B)). So, by RAA we can conclude ~B. We can get A&B the exact same way: Assume ~(A &B). By v Intro, you can get B v ~(A & B), and that contradicts ~(B v ~(A & B)). So, by RAA we can conclude ~~(A &B), and by & Elim we get A&B. Yes, RAA is your friend! :)
$endgroup$
– Bram28
Jan 3 at 16:54
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
What situation should "trigger" me to think "Now it's time to use RAA"?
I can think of $4$ explicit situations:
Your goal is the negation of something. If you goal is $neg varphi$, assume $varphi$ and see if you can get a contradiction
Your goal is some atomic statement $P$: Assume $neg P$, get a contradiction, get $neg neg P$ using RAA, and finally derive $P$ from $neg neg P$ (classical logics typically have a $neg Elim$ rule for this)
Your goal is a disjunction $varphi lor psi$ ... and you don't have any disjunction that you can work with (if you do have a disjunction, set up a $lor Elim$ on that one.). The nice thing about doing an RAA here is that once you assume $neg ( varphi lor psi)$, you should be able to derive both $neg varphi$ and $neg psi$ (using two RAA proofs themselves!), and now you have some useful stuff to work with on your way to a contradiction.
Your goal is an existential $exists x varphi(x)$ ... and you don't have some other existential to work with (if you do have another existential, set up a $lor Elim$ on that one.). So here the assumption will be $neg exists x varphi(x)$ which, with a bit of work (and probably another RAA inside) should allow you to prove $forall x neg varphi(x)$ ... and that will be useful to try and get to a contradiction given whatever else you have.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Great answer thanks. Point 3 remembered me that the exclude middle proof use RAA in this way.
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 9:47
$begingroup$
Can I ask you if this is the case . I have to proof {A => (-B or C), C=> B, D=> B} -> B or -(A and B) but I'm struggling to do it.
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 12:02
$begingroup$
@Maicake Your goal is a disjunction ... and you don't have a disjunction to work with? Sounds like a job for RAA! That is, assume the negation of that, and see if that leads to a contradiction. Also, from the negation of that you can quickly infer $neg B$ as well as $A land B$ .... from which the contradiction almost immediately follows .... so you're not even using any of the premises ... are you sure you wrote that out correctly?
$endgroup$
– Bram28
Jan 3 at 14:28
$begingroup$
I solved it using Exclude Middle rule as first move. How can you infer (using natural deduction steps) infer -B and A / B from -(B / -(A and B)) ?
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 14:33
$begingroup$
@Maicake For ~B: OK, that's a negation .... sounds like a job for ... RAA! So, assume B. Then by v Intro you get B v ~(A & B), and that contradicts ~(B v ~(A & B)). So, by RAA we can conclude ~B. We can get A&B the exact same way: Assume ~(A &B). By v Intro, you can get B v ~(A & B), and that contradicts ~(B v ~(A & B)). So, by RAA we can conclude ~~(A &B), and by & Elim we get A&B. Yes, RAA is your friend! :)
$endgroup$
– Bram28
Jan 3 at 16:54
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What situation should "trigger" me to think "Now it's time to use RAA"?
I can think of $4$ explicit situations:
Your goal is the negation of something. If you goal is $neg varphi$, assume $varphi$ and see if you can get a contradiction
Your goal is some atomic statement $P$: Assume $neg P$, get a contradiction, get $neg neg P$ using RAA, and finally derive $P$ from $neg neg P$ (classical logics typically have a $neg Elim$ rule for this)
Your goal is a disjunction $varphi lor psi$ ... and you don't have any disjunction that you can work with (if you do have a disjunction, set up a $lor Elim$ on that one.). The nice thing about doing an RAA here is that once you assume $neg ( varphi lor psi)$, you should be able to derive both $neg varphi$ and $neg psi$ (using two RAA proofs themselves!), and now you have some useful stuff to work with on your way to a contradiction.
Your goal is an existential $exists x varphi(x)$ ... and you don't have some other existential to work with (if you do have another existential, set up a $lor Elim$ on that one.). So here the assumption will be $neg exists x varphi(x)$ which, with a bit of work (and probably another RAA inside) should allow you to prove $forall x neg varphi(x)$ ... and that will be useful to try and get to a contradiction given whatever else you have.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Great answer thanks. Point 3 remembered me that the exclude middle proof use RAA in this way.
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 9:47
$begingroup$
Can I ask you if this is the case . I have to proof {A => (-B or C), C=> B, D=> B} -> B or -(A and B) but I'm struggling to do it.
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 12:02
$begingroup$
@Maicake Your goal is a disjunction ... and you don't have a disjunction to work with? Sounds like a job for RAA! That is, assume the negation of that, and see if that leads to a contradiction. Also, from the negation of that you can quickly infer $neg B$ as well as $A land B$ .... from which the contradiction almost immediately follows .... so you're not even using any of the premises ... are you sure you wrote that out correctly?
$endgroup$
– Bram28
Jan 3 at 14:28
$begingroup$
I solved it using Exclude Middle rule as first move. How can you infer (using natural deduction steps) infer -B and A / B from -(B / -(A and B)) ?
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 14:33
$begingroup$
@Maicake For ~B: OK, that's a negation .... sounds like a job for ... RAA! So, assume B. Then by v Intro you get B v ~(A & B), and that contradicts ~(B v ~(A & B)). So, by RAA we can conclude ~B. We can get A&B the exact same way: Assume ~(A &B). By v Intro, you can get B v ~(A & B), and that contradicts ~(B v ~(A & B)). So, by RAA we can conclude ~~(A &B), and by & Elim we get A&B. Yes, RAA is your friend! :)
$endgroup$
– Bram28
Jan 3 at 16:54
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What situation should "trigger" me to think "Now it's time to use RAA"?
I can think of $4$ explicit situations:
Your goal is the negation of something. If you goal is $neg varphi$, assume $varphi$ and see if you can get a contradiction
Your goal is some atomic statement $P$: Assume $neg P$, get a contradiction, get $neg neg P$ using RAA, and finally derive $P$ from $neg neg P$ (classical logics typically have a $neg Elim$ rule for this)
Your goal is a disjunction $varphi lor psi$ ... and you don't have any disjunction that you can work with (if you do have a disjunction, set up a $lor Elim$ on that one.). The nice thing about doing an RAA here is that once you assume $neg ( varphi lor psi)$, you should be able to derive both $neg varphi$ and $neg psi$ (using two RAA proofs themselves!), and now you have some useful stuff to work with on your way to a contradiction.
Your goal is an existential $exists x varphi(x)$ ... and you don't have some other existential to work with (if you do have another existential, set up a $lor Elim$ on that one.). So here the assumption will be $neg exists x varphi(x)$ which, with a bit of work (and probably another RAA inside) should allow you to prove $forall x neg varphi(x)$ ... and that will be useful to try and get to a contradiction given whatever else you have.
$endgroup$
What situation should "trigger" me to think "Now it's time to use RAA"?
I can think of $4$ explicit situations:
Your goal is the negation of something. If you goal is $neg varphi$, assume $varphi$ and see if you can get a contradiction
Your goal is some atomic statement $P$: Assume $neg P$, get a contradiction, get $neg neg P$ using RAA, and finally derive $P$ from $neg neg P$ (classical logics typically have a $neg Elim$ rule for this)
Your goal is a disjunction $varphi lor psi$ ... and you don't have any disjunction that you can work with (if you do have a disjunction, set up a $lor Elim$ on that one.). The nice thing about doing an RAA here is that once you assume $neg ( varphi lor psi)$, you should be able to derive both $neg varphi$ and $neg psi$ (using two RAA proofs themselves!), and now you have some useful stuff to work with on your way to a contradiction.
Your goal is an existential $exists x varphi(x)$ ... and you don't have some other existential to work with (if you do have another existential, set up a $lor Elim$ on that one.). So here the assumption will be $neg exists x varphi(x)$ which, with a bit of work (and probably another RAA inside) should allow you to prove $forall x neg varphi(x)$ ... and that will be useful to try and get to a contradiction given whatever else you have.
answered Jan 2 at 20:11
Bram28Bram28
63.2k44793
63.2k44793
$begingroup$
Great answer thanks. Point 3 remembered me that the exclude middle proof use RAA in this way.
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 9:47
$begingroup$
Can I ask you if this is the case . I have to proof {A => (-B or C), C=> B, D=> B} -> B or -(A and B) but I'm struggling to do it.
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 12:02
$begingroup$
@Maicake Your goal is a disjunction ... and you don't have a disjunction to work with? Sounds like a job for RAA! That is, assume the negation of that, and see if that leads to a contradiction. Also, from the negation of that you can quickly infer $neg B$ as well as $A land B$ .... from which the contradiction almost immediately follows .... so you're not even using any of the premises ... are you sure you wrote that out correctly?
$endgroup$
– Bram28
Jan 3 at 14:28
$begingroup$
I solved it using Exclude Middle rule as first move. How can you infer (using natural deduction steps) infer -B and A / B from -(B / -(A and B)) ?
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 14:33
$begingroup$
@Maicake For ~B: OK, that's a negation .... sounds like a job for ... RAA! So, assume B. Then by v Intro you get B v ~(A & B), and that contradicts ~(B v ~(A & B)). So, by RAA we can conclude ~B. We can get A&B the exact same way: Assume ~(A &B). By v Intro, you can get B v ~(A & B), and that contradicts ~(B v ~(A & B)). So, by RAA we can conclude ~~(A &B), and by & Elim we get A&B. Yes, RAA is your friend! :)
$endgroup$
– Bram28
Jan 3 at 16:54
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Great answer thanks. Point 3 remembered me that the exclude middle proof use RAA in this way.
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 9:47
$begingroup$
Can I ask you if this is the case . I have to proof {A => (-B or C), C=> B, D=> B} -> B or -(A and B) but I'm struggling to do it.
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 12:02
$begingroup$
@Maicake Your goal is a disjunction ... and you don't have a disjunction to work with? Sounds like a job for RAA! That is, assume the negation of that, and see if that leads to a contradiction. Also, from the negation of that you can quickly infer $neg B$ as well as $A land B$ .... from which the contradiction almost immediately follows .... so you're not even using any of the premises ... are you sure you wrote that out correctly?
$endgroup$
– Bram28
Jan 3 at 14:28
$begingroup$
I solved it using Exclude Middle rule as first move. How can you infer (using natural deduction steps) infer -B and A / B from -(B / -(A and B)) ?
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 14:33
$begingroup$
@Maicake For ~B: OK, that's a negation .... sounds like a job for ... RAA! So, assume B. Then by v Intro you get B v ~(A & B), and that contradicts ~(B v ~(A & B)). So, by RAA we can conclude ~B. We can get A&B the exact same way: Assume ~(A &B). By v Intro, you can get B v ~(A & B), and that contradicts ~(B v ~(A & B)). So, by RAA we can conclude ~~(A &B), and by & Elim we get A&B. Yes, RAA is your friend! :)
$endgroup$
– Bram28
Jan 3 at 16:54
$begingroup$
Great answer thanks. Point 3 remembered me that the exclude middle proof use RAA in this way.
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 9:47
$begingroup$
Great answer thanks. Point 3 remembered me that the exclude middle proof use RAA in this way.
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 9:47
$begingroup$
Can I ask you if this is the case . I have to proof {A => (-B or C), C=> B, D=> B} -> B or -(A and B) but I'm struggling to do it.
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 12:02
$begingroup$
Can I ask you if this is the case . I have to proof {A => (-B or C), C=> B, D=> B} -> B or -(A and B) but I'm struggling to do it.
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 12:02
$begingroup$
@Maicake Your goal is a disjunction ... and you don't have a disjunction to work with? Sounds like a job for RAA! That is, assume the negation of that, and see if that leads to a contradiction. Also, from the negation of that you can quickly infer $neg B$ as well as $A land B$ .... from which the contradiction almost immediately follows .... so you're not even using any of the premises ... are you sure you wrote that out correctly?
$endgroup$
– Bram28
Jan 3 at 14:28
$begingroup$
@Maicake Your goal is a disjunction ... and you don't have a disjunction to work with? Sounds like a job for RAA! That is, assume the negation of that, and see if that leads to a contradiction. Also, from the negation of that you can quickly infer $neg B$ as well as $A land B$ .... from which the contradiction almost immediately follows .... so you're not even using any of the premises ... are you sure you wrote that out correctly?
$endgroup$
– Bram28
Jan 3 at 14:28
$begingroup$
I solved it using Exclude Middle rule as first move. How can you infer (using natural deduction steps) infer -B and A / B from -(B / -(A and B)) ?
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 14:33
$begingroup$
I solved it using Exclude Middle rule as first move. How can you infer (using natural deduction steps) infer -B and A / B from -(B / -(A and B)) ?
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 3 at 14:33
$begingroup$
@Maicake For ~B: OK, that's a negation .... sounds like a job for ... RAA! So, assume B. Then by v Intro you get B v ~(A & B), and that contradicts ~(B v ~(A & B)). So, by RAA we can conclude ~B. We can get A&B the exact same way: Assume ~(A &B). By v Intro, you can get B v ~(A & B), and that contradicts ~(B v ~(A & B)). So, by RAA we can conclude ~~(A &B), and by & Elim we get A&B. Yes, RAA is your friend! :)
$endgroup$
– Bram28
Jan 3 at 16:54
$begingroup$
@Maicake For ~B: OK, that's a negation .... sounds like a job for ... RAA! So, assume B. Then by v Intro you get B v ~(A & B), and that contradicts ~(B v ~(A & B)). So, by RAA we can conclude ~B. We can get A&B the exact same way: Assume ~(A &B). By v Intro, you can get B v ~(A & B), and that contradicts ~(B v ~(A & B)). So, by RAA we can conclude ~~(A &B), and by & Elim we get A&B. Yes, RAA is your friend! :)
$endgroup$
– Bram28
Jan 3 at 16:54
add a comment |
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2
$begingroup$
When you have no other strategies available... then try RAA.
$endgroup$
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
Jan 2 at 12:09
$begingroup$
Do you include also "non invertible rules" in available strategies?
$endgroup$
– Maicake
Jan 2 at 12:14