Discrete Probability: Uniformly random permutations of sets and Independent/Dependent











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Question:



a) Let $n$ $ge$ $3$ be an integer. Consider a uniformly random permutation $a_1$,$a_2$...$a_n$ of the set ${(1,2,...,n})$. Define the events:



A = "$a_n$ = n"



B = "$a_2$ $gt$ $a_1$"



Are these independent or dependent? Show why?




Attempt:



I have to show $P$($A$$cap$$B$) = $P(A)P(B)$ to prove independence



If I take $n=3$: I get the set $({1,2,3})$ that can be arranged in $3$ ways that satisfy the



condition of "$a_2$ $gt$ $a_1$". This is out of the total $8$ choices.



So, $Pr(B)$ $=$ $frac{3}{8}$



For $Pr(A)$, I don't know what they mean by this. "$a_n$ = n". Isn't $a_n$ always going to be $n$? So, $Pr(A)$ = 1?



For $P$($A$$cap$$B$) = $frac{3}{8}$ $.$ 1 = $frac{3}{8}$



$P$($A$$cap$$B$) = $P(A)P(B)$ = $frac{3}{8}$ = Independent!




Question:



b) Let $n$ $ge$ $5$ be an integer. Consider a uniformly random permutation $a_1$,$a_2$...$a_n$ of the set ${(1,2,...,n})$. Define the events:



A = "$a_1$ = 1"



B = "$a_n$ $=$ $5$"



What is $Pr$($A$$cup$$B$)?



a) $frac{1}{n}$ $-$ $frac{1}{n(n-1)}$



b) $frac{2}{n}$ $-$ $frac{1}{n(n-1)}$ (Answer)



c) $frac{2}{n}$ $-$ $frac{1}{n^2}$




Attempt:



For $n=5$, I can find the $P(A)$, $P(B)$ to be $frac{1}{5}$



I have to show $P$($A$$cup$$B$) = $P(A) $ + $ P(B)$ $-$ $P$($A$$cap$$B$).



I am struggling to determine $P$($A$$cap$$B$) for this. Would it just be $frac{1}{5}$ $.$ $frac{1}{5}$? That doesn't give me the correct solution for $n=5$ which should be 0.35.










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  • I think you haven't understood what a permutation is, and hence you're doing things very incorrectly. Please go and revise this. (Loosely, the set of permutations of a set $S$ is the set of all the different orderings you can write these numbers in. In the question, they give you the set in a uniformly random order - i.e., the numbers $(a_1, dots, a_n)$ are $(1,dots,n)$ all jumbled up. Note that the size of sample space is $n!$, which for $n =3$ is $6$, not $8$. Also, $P(a_i = j) = 1/n$ for any $i,j,n$, & in particular $P(a_n = n) neq 1$.)
    – stochasticboy321
    Dec 1 at 3:40

















up vote
0
down vote

favorite













Question:



a) Let $n$ $ge$ $3$ be an integer. Consider a uniformly random permutation $a_1$,$a_2$...$a_n$ of the set ${(1,2,...,n})$. Define the events:



A = "$a_n$ = n"



B = "$a_2$ $gt$ $a_1$"



Are these independent or dependent? Show why?




Attempt:



I have to show $P$($A$$cap$$B$) = $P(A)P(B)$ to prove independence



If I take $n=3$: I get the set $({1,2,3})$ that can be arranged in $3$ ways that satisfy the



condition of "$a_2$ $gt$ $a_1$". This is out of the total $8$ choices.



So, $Pr(B)$ $=$ $frac{3}{8}$



For $Pr(A)$, I don't know what they mean by this. "$a_n$ = n". Isn't $a_n$ always going to be $n$? So, $Pr(A)$ = 1?



For $P$($A$$cap$$B$) = $frac{3}{8}$ $.$ 1 = $frac{3}{8}$



$P$($A$$cap$$B$) = $P(A)P(B)$ = $frac{3}{8}$ = Independent!




Question:



b) Let $n$ $ge$ $5$ be an integer. Consider a uniformly random permutation $a_1$,$a_2$...$a_n$ of the set ${(1,2,...,n})$. Define the events:



A = "$a_1$ = 1"



B = "$a_n$ $=$ $5$"



What is $Pr$($A$$cup$$B$)?



a) $frac{1}{n}$ $-$ $frac{1}{n(n-1)}$



b) $frac{2}{n}$ $-$ $frac{1}{n(n-1)}$ (Answer)



c) $frac{2}{n}$ $-$ $frac{1}{n^2}$




Attempt:



For $n=5$, I can find the $P(A)$, $P(B)$ to be $frac{1}{5}$



I have to show $P$($A$$cup$$B$) = $P(A) $ + $ P(B)$ $-$ $P$($A$$cap$$B$).



I am struggling to determine $P$($A$$cap$$B$) for this. Would it just be $frac{1}{5}$ $.$ $frac{1}{5}$? That doesn't give me the correct solution for $n=5$ which should be 0.35.










share|cite|improve this question






















  • I think you haven't understood what a permutation is, and hence you're doing things very incorrectly. Please go and revise this. (Loosely, the set of permutations of a set $S$ is the set of all the different orderings you can write these numbers in. In the question, they give you the set in a uniformly random order - i.e., the numbers $(a_1, dots, a_n)$ are $(1,dots,n)$ all jumbled up. Note that the size of sample space is $n!$, which for $n =3$ is $6$, not $8$. Also, $P(a_i = j) = 1/n$ for any $i,j,n$, & in particular $P(a_n = n) neq 1$.)
    – stochasticboy321
    Dec 1 at 3:40















up vote
0
down vote

favorite









up vote
0
down vote

favorite












Question:



a) Let $n$ $ge$ $3$ be an integer. Consider a uniformly random permutation $a_1$,$a_2$...$a_n$ of the set ${(1,2,...,n})$. Define the events:



A = "$a_n$ = n"



B = "$a_2$ $gt$ $a_1$"



Are these independent or dependent? Show why?




Attempt:



I have to show $P$($A$$cap$$B$) = $P(A)P(B)$ to prove independence



If I take $n=3$: I get the set $({1,2,3})$ that can be arranged in $3$ ways that satisfy the



condition of "$a_2$ $gt$ $a_1$". This is out of the total $8$ choices.



So, $Pr(B)$ $=$ $frac{3}{8}$



For $Pr(A)$, I don't know what they mean by this. "$a_n$ = n". Isn't $a_n$ always going to be $n$? So, $Pr(A)$ = 1?



For $P$($A$$cap$$B$) = $frac{3}{8}$ $.$ 1 = $frac{3}{8}$



$P$($A$$cap$$B$) = $P(A)P(B)$ = $frac{3}{8}$ = Independent!




Question:



b) Let $n$ $ge$ $5$ be an integer. Consider a uniformly random permutation $a_1$,$a_2$...$a_n$ of the set ${(1,2,...,n})$. Define the events:



A = "$a_1$ = 1"



B = "$a_n$ $=$ $5$"



What is $Pr$($A$$cup$$B$)?



a) $frac{1}{n}$ $-$ $frac{1}{n(n-1)}$



b) $frac{2}{n}$ $-$ $frac{1}{n(n-1)}$ (Answer)



c) $frac{2}{n}$ $-$ $frac{1}{n^2}$




Attempt:



For $n=5$, I can find the $P(A)$, $P(B)$ to be $frac{1}{5}$



I have to show $P$($A$$cup$$B$) = $P(A) $ + $ P(B)$ $-$ $P$($A$$cap$$B$).



I am struggling to determine $P$($A$$cap$$B$) for this. Would it just be $frac{1}{5}$ $.$ $frac{1}{5}$? That doesn't give me the correct solution for $n=5$ which should be 0.35.










share|cite|improve this question














Question:



a) Let $n$ $ge$ $3$ be an integer. Consider a uniformly random permutation $a_1$,$a_2$...$a_n$ of the set ${(1,2,...,n})$. Define the events:



A = "$a_n$ = n"



B = "$a_2$ $gt$ $a_1$"



Are these independent or dependent? Show why?




Attempt:



I have to show $P$($A$$cap$$B$) = $P(A)P(B)$ to prove independence



If I take $n=3$: I get the set $({1,2,3})$ that can be arranged in $3$ ways that satisfy the



condition of "$a_2$ $gt$ $a_1$". This is out of the total $8$ choices.



So, $Pr(B)$ $=$ $frac{3}{8}$



For $Pr(A)$, I don't know what they mean by this. "$a_n$ = n". Isn't $a_n$ always going to be $n$? So, $Pr(A)$ = 1?



For $P$($A$$cap$$B$) = $frac{3}{8}$ $.$ 1 = $frac{3}{8}$



$P$($A$$cap$$B$) = $P(A)P(B)$ = $frac{3}{8}$ = Independent!




Question:



b) Let $n$ $ge$ $5$ be an integer. Consider a uniformly random permutation $a_1$,$a_2$...$a_n$ of the set ${(1,2,...,n})$. Define the events:



A = "$a_1$ = 1"



B = "$a_n$ $=$ $5$"



What is $Pr$($A$$cup$$B$)?



a) $frac{1}{n}$ $-$ $frac{1}{n(n-1)}$



b) $frac{2}{n}$ $-$ $frac{1}{n(n-1)}$ (Answer)



c) $frac{2}{n}$ $-$ $frac{1}{n^2}$




Attempt:



For $n=5$, I can find the $P(A)$, $P(B)$ to be $frac{1}{5}$



I have to show $P$($A$$cup$$B$) = $P(A) $ + $ P(B)$ $-$ $P$($A$$cap$$B$).



I am struggling to determine $P$($A$$cap$$B$) for this. Would it just be $frac{1}{5}$ $.$ $frac{1}{5}$? That doesn't give me the correct solution for $n=5$ which should be 0.35.







probability probability-theory discrete-mathematics permutations random-variables






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asked Dec 1 at 3:22









Toby

886




886












  • I think you haven't understood what a permutation is, and hence you're doing things very incorrectly. Please go and revise this. (Loosely, the set of permutations of a set $S$ is the set of all the different orderings you can write these numbers in. In the question, they give you the set in a uniformly random order - i.e., the numbers $(a_1, dots, a_n)$ are $(1,dots,n)$ all jumbled up. Note that the size of sample space is $n!$, which for $n =3$ is $6$, not $8$. Also, $P(a_i = j) = 1/n$ for any $i,j,n$, & in particular $P(a_n = n) neq 1$.)
    – stochasticboy321
    Dec 1 at 3:40




















  • I think you haven't understood what a permutation is, and hence you're doing things very incorrectly. Please go and revise this. (Loosely, the set of permutations of a set $S$ is the set of all the different orderings you can write these numbers in. In the question, they give you the set in a uniformly random order - i.e., the numbers $(a_1, dots, a_n)$ are $(1,dots,n)$ all jumbled up. Note that the size of sample space is $n!$, which for $n =3$ is $6$, not $8$. Also, $P(a_i = j) = 1/n$ for any $i,j,n$, & in particular $P(a_n = n) neq 1$.)
    – stochasticboy321
    Dec 1 at 3:40


















I think you haven't understood what a permutation is, and hence you're doing things very incorrectly. Please go and revise this. (Loosely, the set of permutations of a set $S$ is the set of all the different orderings you can write these numbers in. In the question, they give you the set in a uniformly random order - i.e., the numbers $(a_1, dots, a_n)$ are $(1,dots,n)$ all jumbled up. Note that the size of sample space is $n!$, which for $n =3$ is $6$, not $8$. Also, $P(a_i = j) = 1/n$ for any $i,j,n$, & in particular $P(a_n = n) neq 1$.)
– stochasticboy321
Dec 1 at 3:40






I think you haven't understood what a permutation is, and hence you're doing things very incorrectly. Please go and revise this. (Loosely, the set of permutations of a set $S$ is the set of all the different orderings you can write these numbers in. In the question, they give you the set in a uniformly random order - i.e., the numbers $(a_1, dots, a_n)$ are $(1,dots,n)$ all jumbled up. Note that the size of sample space is $n!$, which for $n =3$ is $6$, not $8$. Also, $P(a_i = j) = 1/n$ for any $i,j,n$, & in particular $P(a_n = n) neq 1$.)
– stochasticboy321
Dec 1 at 3:40












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(a)



If you have $3$ numbers and you permute them, you have only $3!=6$ possibilities.



$$Pr(B)=frac{1}{2}$$ from symmetry.



$$Pr(A)=frac1{n!}$$



since there is only one sequence that satisfies that condition.



Also $$Pr(A cap B)=Pr(A) ne Pr(A)Pr(B)$$



hence they are not independent.



(b)



$$Pr(A)=Pr(B)=frac{(n-1)!}{n!}=frac1n$$



$$Pr(Acap B)= frac{(n-2)!}{n!}=frac1{n(n-1)}$$



The idea is while two positions are fixed, we are free to permute the rest.



Try to avoid the temptation of thinking that $P(Acap B)=P(A)P(B)$ unless you can justify that they are independent.






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    (a)



    If you have $3$ numbers and you permute them, you have only $3!=6$ possibilities.



    $$Pr(B)=frac{1}{2}$$ from symmetry.



    $$Pr(A)=frac1{n!}$$



    since there is only one sequence that satisfies that condition.



    Also $$Pr(A cap B)=Pr(A) ne Pr(A)Pr(B)$$



    hence they are not independent.



    (b)



    $$Pr(A)=Pr(B)=frac{(n-1)!}{n!}=frac1n$$



    $$Pr(Acap B)= frac{(n-2)!}{n!}=frac1{n(n-1)}$$



    The idea is while two positions are fixed, we are free to permute the rest.



    Try to avoid the temptation of thinking that $P(Acap B)=P(A)P(B)$ unless you can justify that they are independent.






    share|cite|improve this answer

























      up vote
      1
      down vote













      (a)



      If you have $3$ numbers and you permute them, you have only $3!=6$ possibilities.



      $$Pr(B)=frac{1}{2}$$ from symmetry.



      $$Pr(A)=frac1{n!}$$



      since there is only one sequence that satisfies that condition.



      Also $$Pr(A cap B)=Pr(A) ne Pr(A)Pr(B)$$



      hence they are not independent.



      (b)



      $$Pr(A)=Pr(B)=frac{(n-1)!}{n!}=frac1n$$



      $$Pr(Acap B)= frac{(n-2)!}{n!}=frac1{n(n-1)}$$



      The idea is while two positions are fixed, we are free to permute the rest.



      Try to avoid the temptation of thinking that $P(Acap B)=P(A)P(B)$ unless you can justify that they are independent.






      share|cite|improve this answer























        up vote
        1
        down vote










        up vote
        1
        down vote









        (a)



        If you have $3$ numbers and you permute them, you have only $3!=6$ possibilities.



        $$Pr(B)=frac{1}{2}$$ from symmetry.



        $$Pr(A)=frac1{n!}$$



        since there is only one sequence that satisfies that condition.



        Also $$Pr(A cap B)=Pr(A) ne Pr(A)Pr(B)$$



        hence they are not independent.



        (b)



        $$Pr(A)=Pr(B)=frac{(n-1)!}{n!}=frac1n$$



        $$Pr(Acap B)= frac{(n-2)!}{n!}=frac1{n(n-1)}$$



        The idea is while two positions are fixed, we are free to permute the rest.



        Try to avoid the temptation of thinking that $P(Acap B)=P(A)P(B)$ unless you can justify that they are independent.






        share|cite|improve this answer












        (a)



        If you have $3$ numbers and you permute them, you have only $3!=6$ possibilities.



        $$Pr(B)=frac{1}{2}$$ from symmetry.



        $$Pr(A)=frac1{n!}$$



        since there is only one sequence that satisfies that condition.



        Also $$Pr(A cap B)=Pr(A) ne Pr(A)Pr(B)$$



        hence they are not independent.



        (b)



        $$Pr(A)=Pr(B)=frac{(n-1)!}{n!}=frac1n$$



        $$Pr(Acap B)= frac{(n-2)!}{n!}=frac1{n(n-1)}$$



        The idea is while two positions are fixed, we are free to permute the rest.



        Try to avoid the temptation of thinking that $P(Acap B)=P(A)P(B)$ unless you can justify that they are independent.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Dec 1 at 5:48









        Siong Thye Goh

        95.8k1462116




        95.8k1462116






























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