How is $sin (x)$ differentiable at $x=pi /2$
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If we use the limit formula we have that as $xto pi/2$ from the left we have a positive slope and as it approaches from the right we have a negative slope.
So, the right hand limit and left hand limit are different. How is it differentiable at the point then ?
We use the same logic and say $|x|$ is not differentiable at $x=0$
calculus limits
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If we use the limit formula we have that as $xto pi/2$ from the left we have a positive slope and as it approaches from the right we have a negative slope.
So, the right hand limit and left hand limit are different. How is it differentiable at the point then ?
We use the same logic and say $|x|$ is not differentiable at $x=0$
calculus limits
3
One slope is positive, and the other is negative, but in the limit they're both 0. For $|x|$, one limit is 1, the other is -1.
– Todor Markov
2 days ago
2
It's not the sign that's the issue with the absolute value, it's that the left and right hand limits are different. The limits are the same for sine.
– Matt Samuel
2 days ago
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
Do you have a better understanding of this concept now? If there is anything unclear or confusing still, feel free to mention it!
– KM101
2 days ago
"The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees" NO. The limit is $0$, not "close to $0$". The "derivative at $x=pi/2$" by definition is a fixed number, not an approximation.
– user587192
2 days ago
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up vote
-1
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favorite
up vote
-1
down vote
favorite
If we use the limit formula we have that as $xto pi/2$ from the left we have a positive slope and as it approaches from the right we have a negative slope.
So, the right hand limit and left hand limit are different. How is it differentiable at the point then ?
We use the same logic and say $|x|$ is not differentiable at $x=0$
calculus limits
If we use the limit formula we have that as $xto pi/2$ from the left we have a positive slope and as it approaches from the right we have a negative slope.
So, the right hand limit and left hand limit are different. How is it differentiable at the point then ?
We use the same logic and say $|x|$ is not differentiable at $x=0$
calculus limits
calculus limits
edited yesterday
user376343
2,4981718
2,4981718
asked 2 days ago
Nigel Goveas
304
304
3
One slope is positive, and the other is negative, but in the limit they're both 0. For $|x|$, one limit is 1, the other is -1.
– Todor Markov
2 days ago
2
It's not the sign that's the issue with the absolute value, it's that the left and right hand limits are different. The limits are the same for sine.
– Matt Samuel
2 days ago
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
Do you have a better understanding of this concept now? If there is anything unclear or confusing still, feel free to mention it!
– KM101
2 days ago
"The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees" NO. The limit is $0$, not "close to $0$". The "derivative at $x=pi/2$" by definition is a fixed number, not an approximation.
– user587192
2 days ago
add a comment |
3
One slope is positive, and the other is negative, but in the limit they're both 0. For $|x|$, one limit is 1, the other is -1.
– Todor Markov
2 days ago
2
It's not the sign that's the issue with the absolute value, it's that the left and right hand limits are different. The limits are the same for sine.
– Matt Samuel
2 days ago
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
Do you have a better understanding of this concept now? If there is anything unclear or confusing still, feel free to mention it!
– KM101
2 days ago
"The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees" NO. The limit is $0$, not "close to $0$". The "derivative at $x=pi/2$" by definition is a fixed number, not an approximation.
– user587192
2 days ago
3
3
One slope is positive, and the other is negative, but in the limit they're both 0. For $|x|$, one limit is 1, the other is -1.
– Todor Markov
2 days ago
One slope is positive, and the other is negative, but in the limit they're both 0. For $|x|$, one limit is 1, the other is -1.
– Todor Markov
2 days ago
2
2
It's not the sign that's the issue with the absolute value, it's that the left and right hand limits are different. The limits are the same for sine.
– Matt Samuel
2 days ago
It's not the sign that's the issue with the absolute value, it's that the left and right hand limits are different. The limits are the same for sine.
– Matt Samuel
2 days ago
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
Do you have a better understanding of this concept now? If there is anything unclear or confusing still, feel free to mention it!
– KM101
2 days ago
Do you have a better understanding of this concept now? If there is anything unclear or confusing still, feel free to mention it!
– KM101
2 days ago
"The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees" NO. The limit is $0$, not "close to $0$". The "derivative at $x=pi/2$" by definition is a fixed number, not an approximation.
– user587192
2 days ago
"The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees" NO. The limit is $0$, not "close to $0$". The "derivative at $x=pi/2$" by definition is a fixed number, not an approximation.
– user587192
2 days ago
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6 Answers
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To respond to your comments:
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees.
It's not correct that "the limit values are almost the same". The left-hand limit is exactly $0$, no more, no less. The right-hand limit is also exactly $0$, no more, no less. Since the left-hand limit and the right-hand limit are equal (exactly equal), the limit exists.
It's true that "the angles differ", but it also doesn't matter. The definition of a derivative doesn't involve or mention angles at all.
add a comment |
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1
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This is a logical question. However, you can show the limit is equivalent for both the LHS and RHS by
$$lim_{x to frac{pi}{2}^+}sin’x = cosbigg(frac{pi}{2}^+bigg) = 0$$
$$lim_{x to frac{pi}{2}^-}sin’x = cosbigg(frac{pi}{2}^-bigg) = 0$$
Let’s put this example aside for a second and look at $y = vert xvert$ and $y = x^2$, which are similar to your example in that the slopes seem to differ at $x > 0$ and $x < 0$. Here, the derivative doesn’t exist for $y = vert xvert$ since the RHS and LHS limits are not equal, but the derivative does exist for $y = x^2$, so what is the difference?
You can observe the reason visually without calculating. Check https://www.desmos.com/calculator/czqmiiuxrr (the graph the functions). Then, try to zoom in on $x = 0$. Notice that $y = x^2$ seems to flatten out the more you zoom in. However, no matter how much you zoom in on $y = vert xvert$, it always retains its V-shape.
$sin x$ behaves like $y = x^2$ in this regard. It flattens out if you zoom in on $x = frac{pi}{2}$, so the slope of the tangent at that point is $0$. You can check https://www.desmos.com/calculator/l5lv0sypss (the graph of $sin x$) to see what I mean.
That's seems more like it. It's more a technical thing than actucal calculations. Do you know of any graphs in which the right hand and left hand limits are both the same(by the derivative formula) but the function is not differentiable at the point ?
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
It can be shown through calculations (first part of the answer), but it can be understood much more easily when visualized in this way. Also, if the RHS and LHS limits of a function are equal at a point by the definition of a derivative, then they approach the same slope or rate of change as $x$ tends to that value. (Hence, it is defined.)
– KM101
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
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From the left it approaches to $0$, and from the right it approaches to $0$ as well.
Compare this to $|x|$, from the left it approaches to $-1$, and from the right it goes to $+1$.
Do you see the difference?
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
@NigelGoveas '0 point something' is the value of what? the slope? Remember the slope is the tangent of the angle, and for small angles $tan theta approx theta$, so there's a smooth transition around $0$. I don't see how you conclude about the 180 value
– caverac
2 days ago
@NigelGoveas $tan 0^mathrm{o}= tan 180^mathrm{o}$. The slopes are the same.
– eyeballfrog
2 days ago
Well, but as crosses π/2 the slope is negative and the angle is obtuse. I know the modulus of the limits are same and the approach 0. But the angles do differ so what about that ?
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
1
Zoom in on the graph of $sin x$ at $x = frac{pi}{2}$. It flattens out. The graph of $y = vert xvert$ is always V-shaped at $x = 0$ no matter how much you zoom in on it.
– KM101
2 days ago
|
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0
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We have that
$$lim_{xto frac {pi}2} frac{sin x-sin frac {pi}2}{x-frac {pi}2}
=lim_{yto 0} frac{sin left( frac {pi}2+yright)-1}{y}
=lim_{yto 0} frac{cos y-1}{y}=lim_{yto 0} left(ycdotfrac{cos y-1}{y^2}right)=0cdot left(-frac12right)=0$$
Why aren't you checking the left hand right hand limits? We should check that before we say that limit exists at that point
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
We can repeat exactly the same steps for the left hand and right hand limits which are indeed both equal to zero.
– gimusi
2 days ago
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0
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The limit is 0 each case. In one case the limit is approached through positive values, and in the other the limit is approached through negative values; but in each case the limit itself is the same: zero.
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It looks you are considering the signs of the numerator and denominator in:
$$lim_{xto frac{pi}{2}^-} frac{sin(x)-sin{frac{pi}{2}}}{x-frac{pi}{2}} text{and} lim_{xto frac{pi}{2}^+} frac{sin(x)-sin{frac{pi}{2}}}{x-frac{pi}{2}}.$$
In the LHS limit, both numerator and denominator are negative, while in the RHS limit, the numerator is negative and denominator is positive, which seems a contradiction to you. ("So, the right hand limit and left hand limit are different.") The thing is, as others pointed, both LHS and RHS limits are eventually equal to zero.
As an easier example, consider the derivative of $f(x)=x^2$ at $x=0$. By your reasoning the function must not have a derivative, while it does have it, because:
$$lim_{xto 0^-} frac{x^2-0}{x-0}=0 text{and} lim_{xto 0^+} frac{x^2-0}{x-0}=0.$$
add a comment |
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
To respond to your comments:
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees.
It's not correct that "the limit values are almost the same". The left-hand limit is exactly $0$, no more, no less. The right-hand limit is also exactly $0$, no more, no less. Since the left-hand limit and the right-hand limit are equal (exactly equal), the limit exists.
It's true that "the angles differ", but it also doesn't matter. The definition of a derivative doesn't involve or mention angles at all.
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
To respond to your comments:
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees.
It's not correct that "the limit values are almost the same". The left-hand limit is exactly $0$, no more, no less. The right-hand limit is also exactly $0$, no more, no less. Since the left-hand limit and the right-hand limit are equal (exactly equal), the limit exists.
It's true that "the angles differ", but it also doesn't matter. The definition of a derivative doesn't involve or mention angles at all.
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
To respond to your comments:
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees.
It's not correct that "the limit values are almost the same". The left-hand limit is exactly $0$, no more, no less. The right-hand limit is also exactly $0$, no more, no less. Since the left-hand limit and the right-hand limit are equal (exactly equal), the limit exists.
It's true that "the angles differ", but it also doesn't matter. The definition of a derivative doesn't involve or mention angles at all.
To respond to your comments:
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees.
It's not correct that "the limit values are almost the same". The left-hand limit is exactly $0$, no more, no less. The right-hand limit is also exactly $0$, no more, no less. Since the left-hand limit and the right-hand limit are equal (exactly equal), the limit exists.
It's true that "the angles differ", but it also doesn't matter. The definition of a derivative doesn't involve or mention angles at all.
answered 2 days ago
Tanner Swett
3,9561638
3,9561638
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
This is a logical question. However, you can show the limit is equivalent for both the LHS and RHS by
$$lim_{x to frac{pi}{2}^+}sin’x = cosbigg(frac{pi}{2}^+bigg) = 0$$
$$lim_{x to frac{pi}{2}^-}sin’x = cosbigg(frac{pi}{2}^-bigg) = 0$$
Let’s put this example aside for a second and look at $y = vert xvert$ and $y = x^2$, which are similar to your example in that the slopes seem to differ at $x > 0$ and $x < 0$. Here, the derivative doesn’t exist for $y = vert xvert$ since the RHS and LHS limits are not equal, but the derivative does exist for $y = x^2$, so what is the difference?
You can observe the reason visually without calculating. Check https://www.desmos.com/calculator/czqmiiuxrr (the graph the functions). Then, try to zoom in on $x = 0$. Notice that $y = x^2$ seems to flatten out the more you zoom in. However, no matter how much you zoom in on $y = vert xvert$, it always retains its V-shape.
$sin x$ behaves like $y = x^2$ in this regard. It flattens out if you zoom in on $x = frac{pi}{2}$, so the slope of the tangent at that point is $0$. You can check https://www.desmos.com/calculator/l5lv0sypss (the graph of $sin x$) to see what I mean.
That's seems more like it. It's more a technical thing than actucal calculations. Do you know of any graphs in which the right hand and left hand limits are both the same(by the derivative formula) but the function is not differentiable at the point ?
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
It can be shown through calculations (first part of the answer), but it can be understood much more easily when visualized in this way. Also, if the RHS and LHS limits of a function are equal at a point by the definition of a derivative, then they approach the same slope or rate of change as $x$ tends to that value. (Hence, it is defined.)
– KM101
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
This is a logical question. However, you can show the limit is equivalent for both the LHS and RHS by
$$lim_{x to frac{pi}{2}^+}sin’x = cosbigg(frac{pi}{2}^+bigg) = 0$$
$$lim_{x to frac{pi}{2}^-}sin’x = cosbigg(frac{pi}{2}^-bigg) = 0$$
Let’s put this example aside for a second and look at $y = vert xvert$ and $y = x^2$, which are similar to your example in that the slopes seem to differ at $x > 0$ and $x < 0$. Here, the derivative doesn’t exist for $y = vert xvert$ since the RHS and LHS limits are not equal, but the derivative does exist for $y = x^2$, so what is the difference?
You can observe the reason visually without calculating. Check https://www.desmos.com/calculator/czqmiiuxrr (the graph the functions). Then, try to zoom in on $x = 0$. Notice that $y = x^2$ seems to flatten out the more you zoom in. However, no matter how much you zoom in on $y = vert xvert$, it always retains its V-shape.
$sin x$ behaves like $y = x^2$ in this regard. It flattens out if you zoom in on $x = frac{pi}{2}$, so the slope of the tangent at that point is $0$. You can check https://www.desmos.com/calculator/l5lv0sypss (the graph of $sin x$) to see what I mean.
That's seems more like it. It's more a technical thing than actucal calculations. Do you know of any graphs in which the right hand and left hand limits are both the same(by the derivative formula) but the function is not differentiable at the point ?
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
It can be shown through calculations (first part of the answer), but it can be understood much more easily when visualized in this way. Also, if the RHS and LHS limits of a function are equal at a point by the definition of a derivative, then they approach the same slope or rate of change as $x$ tends to that value. (Hence, it is defined.)
– KM101
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
This is a logical question. However, you can show the limit is equivalent for both the LHS and RHS by
$$lim_{x to frac{pi}{2}^+}sin’x = cosbigg(frac{pi}{2}^+bigg) = 0$$
$$lim_{x to frac{pi}{2}^-}sin’x = cosbigg(frac{pi}{2}^-bigg) = 0$$
Let’s put this example aside for a second and look at $y = vert xvert$ and $y = x^2$, which are similar to your example in that the slopes seem to differ at $x > 0$ and $x < 0$. Here, the derivative doesn’t exist for $y = vert xvert$ since the RHS and LHS limits are not equal, but the derivative does exist for $y = x^2$, so what is the difference?
You can observe the reason visually without calculating. Check https://www.desmos.com/calculator/czqmiiuxrr (the graph the functions). Then, try to zoom in on $x = 0$. Notice that $y = x^2$ seems to flatten out the more you zoom in. However, no matter how much you zoom in on $y = vert xvert$, it always retains its V-shape.
$sin x$ behaves like $y = x^2$ in this regard. It flattens out if you zoom in on $x = frac{pi}{2}$, so the slope of the tangent at that point is $0$. You can check https://www.desmos.com/calculator/l5lv0sypss (the graph of $sin x$) to see what I mean.
This is a logical question. However, you can show the limit is equivalent for both the LHS and RHS by
$$lim_{x to frac{pi}{2}^+}sin’x = cosbigg(frac{pi}{2}^+bigg) = 0$$
$$lim_{x to frac{pi}{2}^-}sin’x = cosbigg(frac{pi}{2}^-bigg) = 0$$
Let’s put this example aside for a second and look at $y = vert xvert$ and $y = x^2$, which are similar to your example in that the slopes seem to differ at $x > 0$ and $x < 0$. Here, the derivative doesn’t exist for $y = vert xvert$ since the RHS and LHS limits are not equal, but the derivative does exist for $y = x^2$, so what is the difference?
You can observe the reason visually without calculating. Check https://www.desmos.com/calculator/czqmiiuxrr (the graph the functions). Then, try to zoom in on $x = 0$. Notice that $y = x^2$ seems to flatten out the more you zoom in. However, no matter how much you zoom in on $y = vert xvert$, it always retains its V-shape.
$sin x$ behaves like $y = x^2$ in this regard. It flattens out if you zoom in on $x = frac{pi}{2}$, so the slope of the tangent at that point is $0$. You can check https://www.desmos.com/calculator/l5lv0sypss (the graph of $sin x$) to see what I mean.
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
KM101
2,928416
2,928416
That's seems more like it. It's more a technical thing than actucal calculations. Do you know of any graphs in which the right hand and left hand limits are both the same(by the derivative formula) but the function is not differentiable at the point ?
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
It can be shown through calculations (first part of the answer), but it can be understood much more easily when visualized in this way. Also, if the RHS and LHS limits of a function are equal at a point by the definition of a derivative, then they approach the same slope or rate of change as $x$ tends to that value. (Hence, it is defined.)
– KM101
2 days ago
add a comment |
That's seems more like it. It's more a technical thing than actucal calculations. Do you know of any graphs in which the right hand and left hand limits are both the same(by the derivative formula) but the function is not differentiable at the point ?
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
It can be shown through calculations (first part of the answer), but it can be understood much more easily when visualized in this way. Also, if the RHS and LHS limits of a function are equal at a point by the definition of a derivative, then they approach the same slope or rate of change as $x$ tends to that value. (Hence, it is defined.)
– KM101
2 days ago
That's seems more like it. It's more a technical thing than actucal calculations. Do you know of any graphs in which the right hand and left hand limits are both the same(by the derivative formula) but the function is not differentiable at the point ?
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
That's seems more like it. It's more a technical thing than actucal calculations. Do you know of any graphs in which the right hand and left hand limits are both the same(by the derivative formula) but the function is not differentiable at the point ?
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
It can be shown through calculations (first part of the answer), but it can be understood much more easily when visualized in this way. Also, if the RHS and LHS limits of a function are equal at a point by the definition of a derivative, then they approach the same slope or rate of change as $x$ tends to that value. (Hence, it is defined.)
– KM101
2 days ago
It can be shown through calculations (first part of the answer), but it can be understood much more easily when visualized in this way. Also, if the RHS and LHS limits of a function are equal at a point by the definition of a derivative, then they approach the same slope or rate of change as $x$ tends to that value. (Hence, it is defined.)
– KM101
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
From the left it approaches to $0$, and from the right it approaches to $0$ as well.
Compare this to $|x|$, from the left it approaches to $-1$, and from the right it goes to $+1$.
Do you see the difference?
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
@NigelGoveas '0 point something' is the value of what? the slope? Remember the slope is the tangent of the angle, and for small angles $tan theta approx theta$, so there's a smooth transition around $0$. I don't see how you conclude about the 180 value
– caverac
2 days ago
@NigelGoveas $tan 0^mathrm{o}= tan 180^mathrm{o}$. The slopes are the same.
– eyeballfrog
2 days ago
Well, but as crosses π/2 the slope is negative and the angle is obtuse. I know the modulus of the limits are same and the approach 0. But the angles do differ so what about that ?
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
1
Zoom in on the graph of $sin x$ at $x = frac{pi}{2}$. It flattens out. The graph of $y = vert xvert$ is always V-shaped at $x = 0$ no matter how much you zoom in on it.
– KM101
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
0
down vote
From the left it approaches to $0$, and from the right it approaches to $0$ as well.
Compare this to $|x|$, from the left it approaches to $-1$, and from the right it goes to $+1$.
Do you see the difference?
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
@NigelGoveas '0 point something' is the value of what? the slope? Remember the slope is the tangent of the angle, and for small angles $tan theta approx theta$, so there's a smooth transition around $0$. I don't see how you conclude about the 180 value
– caverac
2 days ago
@NigelGoveas $tan 0^mathrm{o}= tan 180^mathrm{o}$. The slopes are the same.
– eyeballfrog
2 days ago
Well, but as crosses π/2 the slope is negative and the angle is obtuse. I know the modulus of the limits are same and the approach 0. But the angles do differ so what about that ?
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
1
Zoom in on the graph of $sin x$ at $x = frac{pi}{2}$. It flattens out. The graph of $y = vert xvert$ is always V-shaped at $x = 0$ no matter how much you zoom in on it.
– KM101
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
From the left it approaches to $0$, and from the right it approaches to $0$ as well.
Compare this to $|x|$, from the left it approaches to $-1$, and from the right it goes to $+1$.
Do you see the difference?
From the left it approaches to $0$, and from the right it approaches to $0$ as well.
Compare this to $|x|$, from the left it approaches to $-1$, and from the right it goes to $+1$.
Do you see the difference?
answered 2 days ago
caverac
11.9k21027
11.9k21027
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
@NigelGoveas '0 point something' is the value of what? the slope? Remember the slope is the tangent of the angle, and for small angles $tan theta approx theta$, so there's a smooth transition around $0$. I don't see how you conclude about the 180 value
– caverac
2 days ago
@NigelGoveas $tan 0^mathrm{o}= tan 180^mathrm{o}$. The slopes are the same.
– eyeballfrog
2 days ago
Well, but as crosses π/2 the slope is negative and the angle is obtuse. I know the modulus of the limits are same and the approach 0. But the angles do differ so what about that ?
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
1
Zoom in on the graph of $sin x$ at $x = frac{pi}{2}$. It flattens out. The graph of $y = vert xvert$ is always V-shaped at $x = 0$ no matter how much you zoom in on it.
– KM101
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
@NigelGoveas '0 point something' is the value of what? the slope? Remember the slope is the tangent of the angle, and for small angles $tan theta approx theta$, so there's a smooth transition around $0$. I don't see how you conclude about the 180 value
– caverac
2 days ago
@NigelGoveas $tan 0^mathrm{o}= tan 180^mathrm{o}$. The slopes are the same.
– eyeballfrog
2 days ago
Well, but as crosses π/2 the slope is negative and the angle is obtuse. I know the modulus of the limits are same and the approach 0. But the angles do differ so what about that ?
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
1
Zoom in on the graph of $sin x$ at $x = frac{pi}{2}$. It flattens out. The graph of $y = vert xvert$ is always V-shaped at $x = 0$ no matter how much you zoom in on it.
– KM101
2 days ago
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
@NigelGoveas '0 point something' is the value of what? the slope? Remember the slope is the tangent of the angle, and for small angles $tan theta approx theta$, so there's a smooth transition around $0$. I don't see how you conclude about the 180 value
– caverac
2 days ago
@NigelGoveas '0 point something' is the value of what? the slope? Remember the slope is the tangent of the angle, and for small angles $tan theta approx theta$, so there's a smooth transition around $0$. I don't see how you conclude about the 180 value
– caverac
2 days ago
@NigelGoveas $tan 0^mathrm{o}= tan 180^mathrm{o}$. The slopes are the same.
– eyeballfrog
2 days ago
@NigelGoveas $tan 0^mathrm{o}= tan 180^mathrm{o}$. The slopes are the same.
– eyeballfrog
2 days ago
Well, but as crosses π/2 the slope is negative and the angle is obtuse. I know the modulus of the limits are same and the approach 0. But the angles do differ so what about that ?
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
Well, but as crosses π/2 the slope is negative and the angle is obtuse. I know the modulus of the limits are same and the approach 0. But the angles do differ so what about that ?
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
1
1
Zoom in on the graph of $sin x$ at $x = frac{pi}{2}$. It flattens out. The graph of $y = vert xvert$ is always V-shaped at $x = 0$ no matter how much you zoom in on it.
– KM101
2 days ago
Zoom in on the graph of $sin x$ at $x = frac{pi}{2}$. It flattens out. The graph of $y = vert xvert$ is always V-shaped at $x = 0$ no matter how much you zoom in on it.
– KM101
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
0
down vote
We have that
$$lim_{xto frac {pi}2} frac{sin x-sin frac {pi}2}{x-frac {pi}2}
=lim_{yto 0} frac{sin left( frac {pi}2+yright)-1}{y}
=lim_{yto 0} frac{cos y-1}{y}=lim_{yto 0} left(ycdotfrac{cos y-1}{y^2}right)=0cdot left(-frac12right)=0$$
Why aren't you checking the left hand right hand limits? We should check that before we say that limit exists at that point
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
We can repeat exactly the same steps for the left hand and right hand limits which are indeed both equal to zero.
– gimusi
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
We have that
$$lim_{xto frac {pi}2} frac{sin x-sin frac {pi}2}{x-frac {pi}2}
=lim_{yto 0} frac{sin left( frac {pi}2+yright)-1}{y}
=lim_{yto 0} frac{cos y-1}{y}=lim_{yto 0} left(ycdotfrac{cos y-1}{y^2}right)=0cdot left(-frac12right)=0$$
Why aren't you checking the left hand right hand limits? We should check that before we say that limit exists at that point
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
We can repeat exactly the same steps for the left hand and right hand limits which are indeed both equal to zero.
– gimusi
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
We have that
$$lim_{xto frac {pi}2} frac{sin x-sin frac {pi}2}{x-frac {pi}2}
=lim_{yto 0} frac{sin left( frac {pi}2+yright)-1}{y}
=lim_{yto 0} frac{cos y-1}{y}=lim_{yto 0} left(ycdotfrac{cos y-1}{y^2}right)=0cdot left(-frac12right)=0$$
We have that
$$lim_{xto frac {pi}2} frac{sin x-sin frac {pi}2}{x-frac {pi}2}
=lim_{yto 0} frac{sin left( frac {pi}2+yright)-1}{y}
=lim_{yto 0} frac{cos y-1}{y}=lim_{yto 0} left(ycdotfrac{cos y-1}{y^2}right)=0cdot left(-frac12right)=0$$
answered 2 days ago
gimusi
89.1k74495
89.1k74495
Why aren't you checking the left hand right hand limits? We should check that before we say that limit exists at that point
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
We can repeat exactly the same steps for the left hand and right hand limits which are indeed both equal to zero.
– gimusi
2 days ago
add a comment |
Why aren't you checking the left hand right hand limits? We should check that before we say that limit exists at that point
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
We can repeat exactly the same steps for the left hand and right hand limits which are indeed both equal to zero.
– gimusi
2 days ago
Why aren't you checking the left hand right hand limits? We should check that before we say that limit exists at that point
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
Why aren't you checking the left hand right hand limits? We should check that before we say that limit exists at that point
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
We can repeat exactly the same steps for the left hand and right hand limits which are indeed both equal to zero.
– gimusi
2 days ago
We can repeat exactly the same steps for the left hand and right hand limits which are indeed both equal to zero.
– gimusi
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
The limit is 0 each case. In one case the limit is approached through positive values, and in the other the limit is approached through negative values; but in each case the limit itself is the same: zero.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
The limit is 0 each case. In one case the limit is approached through positive values, and in the other the limit is approached through negative values; but in each case the limit itself is the same: zero.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
The limit is 0 each case. In one case the limit is approached through positive values, and in the other the limit is approached through negative values; but in each case the limit itself is the same: zero.
The limit is 0 each case. In one case the limit is approached through positive values, and in the other the limit is approached through negative values; but in each case the limit itself is the same: zero.
answered 2 days ago
AmbretteOrrisey
3818
3818
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
It looks you are considering the signs of the numerator and denominator in:
$$lim_{xto frac{pi}{2}^-} frac{sin(x)-sin{frac{pi}{2}}}{x-frac{pi}{2}} text{and} lim_{xto frac{pi}{2}^+} frac{sin(x)-sin{frac{pi}{2}}}{x-frac{pi}{2}}.$$
In the LHS limit, both numerator and denominator are negative, while in the RHS limit, the numerator is negative and denominator is positive, which seems a contradiction to you. ("So, the right hand limit and left hand limit are different.") The thing is, as others pointed, both LHS and RHS limits are eventually equal to zero.
As an easier example, consider the derivative of $f(x)=x^2$ at $x=0$. By your reasoning the function must not have a derivative, while it does have it, because:
$$lim_{xto 0^-} frac{x^2-0}{x-0}=0 text{and} lim_{xto 0^+} frac{x^2-0}{x-0}=0.$$
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
It looks you are considering the signs of the numerator and denominator in:
$$lim_{xto frac{pi}{2}^-} frac{sin(x)-sin{frac{pi}{2}}}{x-frac{pi}{2}} text{and} lim_{xto frac{pi}{2}^+} frac{sin(x)-sin{frac{pi}{2}}}{x-frac{pi}{2}}.$$
In the LHS limit, both numerator and denominator are negative, while in the RHS limit, the numerator is negative and denominator is positive, which seems a contradiction to you. ("So, the right hand limit and left hand limit are different.") The thing is, as others pointed, both LHS and RHS limits are eventually equal to zero.
As an easier example, consider the derivative of $f(x)=x^2$ at $x=0$. By your reasoning the function must not have a derivative, while it does have it, because:
$$lim_{xto 0^-} frac{x^2-0}{x-0}=0 text{and} lim_{xto 0^+} frac{x^2-0}{x-0}=0.$$
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
It looks you are considering the signs of the numerator and denominator in:
$$lim_{xto frac{pi}{2}^-} frac{sin(x)-sin{frac{pi}{2}}}{x-frac{pi}{2}} text{and} lim_{xto frac{pi}{2}^+} frac{sin(x)-sin{frac{pi}{2}}}{x-frac{pi}{2}}.$$
In the LHS limit, both numerator and denominator are negative, while in the RHS limit, the numerator is negative and denominator is positive, which seems a contradiction to you. ("So, the right hand limit and left hand limit are different.") The thing is, as others pointed, both LHS and RHS limits are eventually equal to zero.
As an easier example, consider the derivative of $f(x)=x^2$ at $x=0$. By your reasoning the function must not have a derivative, while it does have it, because:
$$lim_{xto 0^-} frac{x^2-0}{x-0}=0 text{and} lim_{xto 0^+} frac{x^2-0}{x-0}=0.$$
It looks you are considering the signs of the numerator and denominator in:
$$lim_{xto frac{pi}{2}^-} frac{sin(x)-sin{frac{pi}{2}}}{x-frac{pi}{2}} text{and} lim_{xto frac{pi}{2}^+} frac{sin(x)-sin{frac{pi}{2}}}{x-frac{pi}{2}}.$$
In the LHS limit, both numerator and denominator are negative, while in the RHS limit, the numerator is negative and denominator is positive, which seems a contradiction to you. ("So, the right hand limit and left hand limit are different.") The thing is, as others pointed, both LHS and RHS limits are eventually equal to zero.
As an easier example, consider the derivative of $f(x)=x^2$ at $x=0$. By your reasoning the function must not have a derivative, while it does have it, because:
$$lim_{xto 0^-} frac{x^2-0}{x-0}=0 text{and} lim_{xto 0^+} frac{x^2-0}{x-0}=0.$$
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
farruhota
18k2736
18k2736
add a comment |
add a comment |
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3
One slope is positive, and the other is negative, but in the limit they're both 0. For $|x|$, one limit is 1, the other is -1.
– Todor Markov
2 days ago
2
It's not the sign that's the issue with the absolute value, it's that the left and right hand limits are different. The limits are the same for sine.
– Matt Samuel
2 days ago
The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right ? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees
– Nigel Goveas
2 days ago
Do you have a better understanding of this concept now? If there is anything unclear or confusing still, feel free to mention it!
– KM101
2 days ago
"The limit values may be almost same but their angles differ right? Like for x=π/2 approaching from the left is gives us angle close to 0 while x=π/2 approaching from the right gives us an angle close to 180 degrees" NO. The limit is $0$, not "close to $0$". The "derivative at $x=pi/2$" by definition is a fixed number, not an approximation.
– user587192
2 days ago