Inverse of a factorial












18














I'm trying to solve hard combinatorics that involve complicated factorials with large values.



In a simple case such as $8Pr = 336$, find the value of $r$, it is easy to say it equals to this: $$frac{8!}{(8-r)!} = 336.$$



Then $(8-r)! = 336$ and by inspection, clearly $8-r = 5$ and $r = 3$.



Now this is all and good and I know an inverse function to a factorial doesn't exist as there is for functions like sin, cos and tan etc. but how would you possibly solve an equation that involves very large values compared to the above problem without the tedious guess and checking for right values.



Edit: For e.g. if you wanted to calculate a problem like this (it's simple I know but a good starting out problem)
Let's say 10 colored marbles are placed in a row, what is the minimum number of colors needed to guarantee at least $10000$ different patterns?
WITHOUT GUESS AND CHECKING



Any method or explanation is appreciated!










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 3




    Stirling approximation.
    – Simply Beautiful Art
    Jan 1 '17 at 1:30






  • 1




    "In a row" would seem to imply that "blue, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red" and "red, blue, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red" are different patterns. If so, factorials are not applicable. Of course there are other combinatorial problems that involve large factorials to which your question still applies.
    – David K
    Jan 1 '17 at 2:01








  • 1




    FWIW, I posted a Python 2 function that uses Stirling's approximation & the Newton-Raphson method to invert log factorial here.
    – PM 2Ring
    Jan 1 '17 at 3:11






  • 1




    @TripleA, why do you say the answer is $4$? There is nothing wrong in Ross Millikan's analysis for the add-on question as it is stated: $3^{10}=59{,}049gt10{,}000$. So unless you have some nonstandard definition of what's required for two patterns to be considered "different," the answer is $3$.
    – Barry Cipra
    Jan 3 '17 at 1:48






  • 1




    @TripleA, ah, I see what you mean now. It would help to edit the add-on question to clarify that the different patterns must all come from a single choice of $10$ marbles of various diffferent colors. Both Ross and I interpreted it as meaning that each pattern is simply an assignment of an allowed color to each marble.
    – Barry Cipra
    Jan 3 '17 at 2:52
















18














I'm trying to solve hard combinatorics that involve complicated factorials with large values.



In a simple case such as $8Pr = 336$, find the value of $r$, it is easy to say it equals to this: $$frac{8!}{(8-r)!} = 336.$$



Then $(8-r)! = 336$ and by inspection, clearly $8-r = 5$ and $r = 3$.



Now this is all and good and I know an inverse function to a factorial doesn't exist as there is for functions like sin, cos and tan etc. but how would you possibly solve an equation that involves very large values compared to the above problem without the tedious guess and checking for right values.



Edit: For e.g. if you wanted to calculate a problem like this (it's simple I know but a good starting out problem)
Let's say 10 colored marbles are placed in a row, what is the minimum number of colors needed to guarantee at least $10000$ different patterns?
WITHOUT GUESS AND CHECKING



Any method or explanation is appreciated!










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 3




    Stirling approximation.
    – Simply Beautiful Art
    Jan 1 '17 at 1:30






  • 1




    "In a row" would seem to imply that "blue, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red" and "red, blue, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red" are different patterns. If so, factorials are not applicable. Of course there are other combinatorial problems that involve large factorials to which your question still applies.
    – David K
    Jan 1 '17 at 2:01








  • 1




    FWIW, I posted a Python 2 function that uses Stirling's approximation & the Newton-Raphson method to invert log factorial here.
    – PM 2Ring
    Jan 1 '17 at 3:11






  • 1




    @TripleA, why do you say the answer is $4$? There is nothing wrong in Ross Millikan's analysis for the add-on question as it is stated: $3^{10}=59{,}049gt10{,}000$. So unless you have some nonstandard definition of what's required for two patterns to be considered "different," the answer is $3$.
    – Barry Cipra
    Jan 3 '17 at 1:48






  • 1




    @TripleA, ah, I see what you mean now. It would help to edit the add-on question to clarify that the different patterns must all come from a single choice of $10$ marbles of various diffferent colors. Both Ross and I interpreted it as meaning that each pattern is simply an assignment of an allowed color to each marble.
    – Barry Cipra
    Jan 3 '17 at 2:52














18












18








18


7





I'm trying to solve hard combinatorics that involve complicated factorials with large values.



In a simple case such as $8Pr = 336$, find the value of $r$, it is easy to say it equals to this: $$frac{8!}{(8-r)!} = 336.$$



Then $(8-r)! = 336$ and by inspection, clearly $8-r = 5$ and $r = 3$.



Now this is all and good and I know an inverse function to a factorial doesn't exist as there is for functions like sin, cos and tan etc. but how would you possibly solve an equation that involves very large values compared to the above problem without the tedious guess and checking for right values.



Edit: For e.g. if you wanted to calculate a problem like this (it's simple I know but a good starting out problem)
Let's say 10 colored marbles are placed in a row, what is the minimum number of colors needed to guarantee at least $10000$ different patterns?
WITHOUT GUESS AND CHECKING



Any method or explanation is appreciated!










share|cite|improve this question















I'm trying to solve hard combinatorics that involve complicated factorials with large values.



In a simple case such as $8Pr = 336$, find the value of $r$, it is easy to say it equals to this: $$frac{8!}{(8-r)!} = 336.$$



Then $(8-r)! = 336$ and by inspection, clearly $8-r = 5$ and $r = 3$.



Now this is all and good and I know an inverse function to a factorial doesn't exist as there is for functions like sin, cos and tan etc. but how would you possibly solve an equation that involves very large values compared to the above problem without the tedious guess and checking for right values.



Edit: For e.g. if you wanted to calculate a problem like this (it's simple I know but a good starting out problem)
Let's say 10 colored marbles are placed in a row, what is the minimum number of colors needed to guarantee at least $10000$ different patterns?
WITHOUT GUESS AND CHECKING



Any method or explanation is appreciated!







factorial






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Jan 3 '17 at 1:25

























asked Jan 1 '17 at 1:20









TripleA

737934




737934








  • 3




    Stirling approximation.
    – Simply Beautiful Art
    Jan 1 '17 at 1:30






  • 1




    "In a row" would seem to imply that "blue, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red" and "red, blue, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red" are different patterns. If so, factorials are not applicable. Of course there are other combinatorial problems that involve large factorials to which your question still applies.
    – David K
    Jan 1 '17 at 2:01








  • 1




    FWIW, I posted a Python 2 function that uses Stirling's approximation & the Newton-Raphson method to invert log factorial here.
    – PM 2Ring
    Jan 1 '17 at 3:11






  • 1




    @TripleA, why do you say the answer is $4$? There is nothing wrong in Ross Millikan's analysis for the add-on question as it is stated: $3^{10}=59{,}049gt10{,}000$. So unless you have some nonstandard definition of what's required for two patterns to be considered "different," the answer is $3$.
    – Barry Cipra
    Jan 3 '17 at 1:48






  • 1




    @TripleA, ah, I see what you mean now. It would help to edit the add-on question to clarify that the different patterns must all come from a single choice of $10$ marbles of various diffferent colors. Both Ross and I interpreted it as meaning that each pattern is simply an assignment of an allowed color to each marble.
    – Barry Cipra
    Jan 3 '17 at 2:52














  • 3




    Stirling approximation.
    – Simply Beautiful Art
    Jan 1 '17 at 1:30






  • 1




    "In a row" would seem to imply that "blue, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red" and "red, blue, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red" are different patterns. If so, factorials are not applicable. Of course there are other combinatorial problems that involve large factorials to which your question still applies.
    – David K
    Jan 1 '17 at 2:01








  • 1




    FWIW, I posted a Python 2 function that uses Stirling's approximation & the Newton-Raphson method to invert log factorial here.
    – PM 2Ring
    Jan 1 '17 at 3:11






  • 1




    @TripleA, why do you say the answer is $4$? There is nothing wrong in Ross Millikan's analysis for the add-on question as it is stated: $3^{10}=59{,}049gt10{,}000$. So unless you have some nonstandard definition of what's required for two patterns to be considered "different," the answer is $3$.
    – Barry Cipra
    Jan 3 '17 at 1:48






  • 1




    @TripleA, ah, I see what you mean now. It would help to edit the add-on question to clarify that the different patterns must all come from a single choice of $10$ marbles of various diffferent colors. Both Ross and I interpreted it as meaning that each pattern is simply an assignment of an allowed color to each marble.
    – Barry Cipra
    Jan 3 '17 at 2:52








3




3




Stirling approximation.
– Simply Beautiful Art
Jan 1 '17 at 1:30




Stirling approximation.
– Simply Beautiful Art
Jan 1 '17 at 1:30




1




1




"In a row" would seem to imply that "blue, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red" and "red, blue, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red" are different patterns. If so, factorials are not applicable. Of course there are other combinatorial problems that involve large factorials to which your question still applies.
– David K
Jan 1 '17 at 2:01






"In a row" would seem to imply that "blue, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red" and "red, blue, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red" are different patterns. If so, factorials are not applicable. Of course there are other combinatorial problems that involve large factorials to which your question still applies.
– David K
Jan 1 '17 at 2:01






1




1




FWIW, I posted a Python 2 function that uses Stirling's approximation & the Newton-Raphson method to invert log factorial here.
– PM 2Ring
Jan 1 '17 at 3:11




FWIW, I posted a Python 2 function that uses Stirling's approximation & the Newton-Raphson method to invert log factorial here.
– PM 2Ring
Jan 1 '17 at 3:11




1




1




@TripleA, why do you say the answer is $4$? There is nothing wrong in Ross Millikan's analysis for the add-on question as it is stated: $3^{10}=59{,}049gt10{,}000$. So unless you have some nonstandard definition of what's required for two patterns to be considered "different," the answer is $3$.
– Barry Cipra
Jan 3 '17 at 1:48




@TripleA, why do you say the answer is $4$? There is nothing wrong in Ross Millikan's analysis for the add-on question as it is stated: $3^{10}=59{,}049gt10{,}000$. So unless you have some nonstandard definition of what's required for two patterns to be considered "different," the answer is $3$.
– Barry Cipra
Jan 3 '17 at 1:48




1




1




@TripleA, ah, I see what you mean now. It would help to edit the add-on question to clarify that the different patterns must all come from a single choice of $10$ marbles of various diffferent colors. Both Ross and I interpreted it as meaning that each pattern is simply an assignment of an allowed color to each marble.
– Barry Cipra
Jan 3 '17 at 2:52




@TripleA, ah, I see what you mean now. It would help to edit the add-on question to clarify that the different patterns must all come from a single choice of $10$ marbles of various diffferent colors. Both Ross and I interpreted it as meaning that each pattern is simply an assignment of an allowed color to each marble.
– Barry Cipra
Jan 3 '17 at 2:52










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















12














I just wrote this answer to an old question. Using $a=1$, we get a close inverse for the factorial function:
$$
nsim eexpleft(operatorname{W}left(frac1{e}logleft(frac{n!}{sqrt{2pi}}right)right)right)-frac12tag{1}
$$






share|cite|improve this answer



















  • 1




    And I just commented about it a few minutes ago ! Funny coïcidence !
    – Claude Leibovici
    Jan 1 '17 at 6:13






  • 1




    Just to add a small detail, robjohn's solution is strictly exact if we use $$n=leftlceil e^{Wleft(frac{log left(frac{n!}{sqrt{2 pi }}right)}{e}right)+1}-frac{1}{2}rightrceil$$
    – Claude Leibovici
    Jan 2 '17 at 4:51






  • 1




    @ClaudeLeibovici: if we know that $n$ is an integer. This is also a good inverse for $Gamma(n+1)$. $$nsim eexpleft(operatorname{W}left(frac1{e}logleft(frac{Gamma(n)}{sqrt{2pi}}right)right)right)+frac12$$ is an approximate inverse for $Gamma(n)$.
    – robjohn
    Jan 2 '17 at 6:58












  • It is so beautiful !
    – Claude Leibovici
    Jan 2 '17 at 8:13



















9














By Stirling's formula



$$n! sim sqrt{2pi n} left({frac{n}{e}}right)^n $$



So we can given a large $n!$ we can attempt to numerically solve,



$$n!=sqrt{2pi x} left({frac{x}{e}}right)^x$$



For $x$ by Newton's method to get an approximate inverse.



The function $mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ given by $f(n)=n!$ is increasing. Also,



$$sqrt{2pi}n^{n+frac{1}{2}}e^{-n} leq n! leq e n^{n+frac{1}{2}}e^{-n}$$



So by numerically solving $n!=sqrt{2pi}x^{x+frac{1}{2}}e^{-x}$ and $n!=ex^{x+frac{1}{2}}e^{-x}$ we can find bounds for $n$.






share|cite|improve this answer































    6














    For equations involving
    large factorials,
    I find the elementary inequalities
    $(n/e)^n < n! < (n/e)^{n+1}$
    often useful.



    Once these have been used,
    you can use
    Stirling's approximation.



    These can be proved
    by induction from
    the elementary inequalities
    $(1+1/n)^n < e < (1+1/n)^{n+1}$.






    share|cite|improve this answer

















    • 2




      So let's say 10 coloured marbles are placed in a row for example, what is the minimum number of colours needed to guarantee atleast 10000 different patterns?
      – TripleA
      Jan 1 '17 at 1:36



















    3














    Would you be fine with an algorithm instead of a mathematical function?



    Solve $nPx = p$ for $x$:



    x = 0
    while p > 1:
    p /= n
    n--
    x++
    return x


    Solve $xPr = p$ for $x$:



    x = r
    while p > 1:
    x++
    p /= x
    return x


    Solve $x!=y$ for $x$:



    x = 1
    while y > 1:
    x++
    y /= x
    return x


    Your example problem can be modeled without the factorial function pretty easily. I'm assuming two marbles with the same color are indistinguishable, that we have at least 10 marbles of each color, and that the order of the marbles matters:



    $$
    x^{10}ge10000\
    xge10000^{1/10}approx2.512\
    x=3
    $$






    share|cite|improve this answer































      -1














      The inverse function of $y = x!$ means getting x in terms of $y$ , i.e $x =$ the largest number in factorisation of y as a factorial.(Where factorising as a factorial means you divide $y$ by $2$, then $3$ and so on. You stop when you get $1$) For example let $5040 = x! , x = ?$



      Factoring $5040$ as a factorial $5040= 7times 6times 5times 4times 3times 2times 1$ , and $7$ is the largest number of that factorial $implies x = 7$
      In your problem $8!/336 = (8 – r)! , r = ?$



      $8!/336 = 120$ , let $(8 – r) = x$ , hence $120 = x! , x = ?$



      $120 = 5times 4times 3times 2times 1$, and the largest number of that factorial $ = x = 5 = (8 – r) implies r = 3.$






      share|cite|improve this answer























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      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes








      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      12














      I just wrote this answer to an old question. Using $a=1$, we get a close inverse for the factorial function:
      $$
      nsim eexpleft(operatorname{W}left(frac1{e}logleft(frac{n!}{sqrt{2pi}}right)right)right)-frac12tag{1}
      $$






      share|cite|improve this answer



















      • 1




        And I just commented about it a few minutes ago ! Funny coïcidence !
        – Claude Leibovici
        Jan 1 '17 at 6:13






      • 1




        Just to add a small detail, robjohn's solution is strictly exact if we use $$n=leftlceil e^{Wleft(frac{log left(frac{n!}{sqrt{2 pi }}right)}{e}right)+1}-frac{1}{2}rightrceil$$
        – Claude Leibovici
        Jan 2 '17 at 4:51






      • 1




        @ClaudeLeibovici: if we know that $n$ is an integer. This is also a good inverse for $Gamma(n+1)$. $$nsim eexpleft(operatorname{W}left(frac1{e}logleft(frac{Gamma(n)}{sqrt{2pi}}right)right)right)+frac12$$ is an approximate inverse for $Gamma(n)$.
        – robjohn
        Jan 2 '17 at 6:58












      • It is so beautiful !
        – Claude Leibovici
        Jan 2 '17 at 8:13
















      12














      I just wrote this answer to an old question. Using $a=1$, we get a close inverse for the factorial function:
      $$
      nsim eexpleft(operatorname{W}left(frac1{e}logleft(frac{n!}{sqrt{2pi}}right)right)right)-frac12tag{1}
      $$






      share|cite|improve this answer



















      • 1




        And I just commented about it a few minutes ago ! Funny coïcidence !
        – Claude Leibovici
        Jan 1 '17 at 6:13






      • 1




        Just to add a small detail, robjohn's solution is strictly exact if we use $$n=leftlceil e^{Wleft(frac{log left(frac{n!}{sqrt{2 pi }}right)}{e}right)+1}-frac{1}{2}rightrceil$$
        – Claude Leibovici
        Jan 2 '17 at 4:51






      • 1




        @ClaudeLeibovici: if we know that $n$ is an integer. This is also a good inverse for $Gamma(n+1)$. $$nsim eexpleft(operatorname{W}left(frac1{e}logleft(frac{Gamma(n)}{sqrt{2pi}}right)right)right)+frac12$$ is an approximate inverse for $Gamma(n)$.
        – robjohn
        Jan 2 '17 at 6:58












      • It is so beautiful !
        – Claude Leibovici
        Jan 2 '17 at 8:13














      12












      12








      12






      I just wrote this answer to an old question. Using $a=1$, we get a close inverse for the factorial function:
      $$
      nsim eexpleft(operatorname{W}left(frac1{e}logleft(frac{n!}{sqrt{2pi}}right)right)right)-frac12tag{1}
      $$






      share|cite|improve this answer














      I just wrote this answer to an old question. Using $a=1$, we get a close inverse for the factorial function:
      $$
      nsim eexpleft(operatorname{W}left(frac1{e}logleft(frac{n!}{sqrt{2pi}}right)right)right)-frac12tag{1}
      $$







      share|cite|improve this answer














      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer








      edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:20









      Community

      1




      1










      answered Jan 1 '17 at 3:50









      robjohn

      264k27303624




      264k27303624








      • 1




        And I just commented about it a few minutes ago ! Funny coïcidence !
        – Claude Leibovici
        Jan 1 '17 at 6:13






      • 1




        Just to add a small detail, robjohn's solution is strictly exact if we use $$n=leftlceil e^{Wleft(frac{log left(frac{n!}{sqrt{2 pi }}right)}{e}right)+1}-frac{1}{2}rightrceil$$
        – Claude Leibovici
        Jan 2 '17 at 4:51






      • 1




        @ClaudeLeibovici: if we know that $n$ is an integer. This is also a good inverse for $Gamma(n+1)$. $$nsim eexpleft(operatorname{W}left(frac1{e}logleft(frac{Gamma(n)}{sqrt{2pi}}right)right)right)+frac12$$ is an approximate inverse for $Gamma(n)$.
        – robjohn
        Jan 2 '17 at 6:58












      • It is so beautiful !
        – Claude Leibovici
        Jan 2 '17 at 8:13














      • 1




        And I just commented about it a few minutes ago ! Funny coïcidence !
        – Claude Leibovici
        Jan 1 '17 at 6:13






      • 1




        Just to add a small detail, robjohn's solution is strictly exact if we use $$n=leftlceil e^{Wleft(frac{log left(frac{n!}{sqrt{2 pi }}right)}{e}right)+1}-frac{1}{2}rightrceil$$
        – Claude Leibovici
        Jan 2 '17 at 4:51






      • 1




        @ClaudeLeibovici: if we know that $n$ is an integer. This is also a good inverse for $Gamma(n+1)$. $$nsim eexpleft(operatorname{W}left(frac1{e}logleft(frac{Gamma(n)}{sqrt{2pi}}right)right)right)+frac12$$ is an approximate inverse for $Gamma(n)$.
        – robjohn
        Jan 2 '17 at 6:58












      • It is so beautiful !
        – Claude Leibovici
        Jan 2 '17 at 8:13








      1




      1




      And I just commented about it a few minutes ago ! Funny coïcidence !
      – Claude Leibovici
      Jan 1 '17 at 6:13




      And I just commented about it a few minutes ago ! Funny coïcidence !
      – Claude Leibovici
      Jan 1 '17 at 6:13




      1




      1




      Just to add a small detail, robjohn's solution is strictly exact if we use $$n=leftlceil e^{Wleft(frac{log left(frac{n!}{sqrt{2 pi }}right)}{e}right)+1}-frac{1}{2}rightrceil$$
      – Claude Leibovici
      Jan 2 '17 at 4:51




      Just to add a small detail, robjohn's solution is strictly exact if we use $$n=leftlceil e^{Wleft(frac{log left(frac{n!}{sqrt{2 pi }}right)}{e}right)+1}-frac{1}{2}rightrceil$$
      – Claude Leibovici
      Jan 2 '17 at 4:51




      1




      1




      @ClaudeLeibovici: if we know that $n$ is an integer. This is also a good inverse for $Gamma(n+1)$. $$nsim eexpleft(operatorname{W}left(frac1{e}logleft(frac{Gamma(n)}{sqrt{2pi}}right)right)right)+frac12$$ is an approximate inverse for $Gamma(n)$.
      – robjohn
      Jan 2 '17 at 6:58






      @ClaudeLeibovici: if we know that $n$ is an integer. This is also a good inverse for $Gamma(n+1)$. $$nsim eexpleft(operatorname{W}left(frac1{e}logleft(frac{Gamma(n)}{sqrt{2pi}}right)right)right)+frac12$$ is an approximate inverse for $Gamma(n)$.
      – robjohn
      Jan 2 '17 at 6:58














      It is so beautiful !
      – Claude Leibovici
      Jan 2 '17 at 8:13




      It is so beautiful !
      – Claude Leibovici
      Jan 2 '17 at 8:13











      9














      By Stirling's formula



      $$n! sim sqrt{2pi n} left({frac{n}{e}}right)^n $$



      So we can given a large $n!$ we can attempt to numerically solve,



      $$n!=sqrt{2pi x} left({frac{x}{e}}right)^x$$



      For $x$ by Newton's method to get an approximate inverse.



      The function $mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ given by $f(n)=n!$ is increasing. Also,



      $$sqrt{2pi}n^{n+frac{1}{2}}e^{-n} leq n! leq e n^{n+frac{1}{2}}e^{-n}$$



      So by numerically solving $n!=sqrt{2pi}x^{x+frac{1}{2}}e^{-x}$ and $n!=ex^{x+frac{1}{2}}e^{-x}$ we can find bounds for $n$.






      share|cite|improve this answer




























        9














        By Stirling's formula



        $$n! sim sqrt{2pi n} left({frac{n}{e}}right)^n $$



        So we can given a large $n!$ we can attempt to numerically solve,



        $$n!=sqrt{2pi x} left({frac{x}{e}}right)^x$$



        For $x$ by Newton's method to get an approximate inverse.



        The function $mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ given by $f(n)=n!$ is increasing. Also,



        $$sqrt{2pi}n^{n+frac{1}{2}}e^{-n} leq n! leq e n^{n+frac{1}{2}}e^{-n}$$



        So by numerically solving $n!=sqrt{2pi}x^{x+frac{1}{2}}e^{-x}$ and $n!=ex^{x+frac{1}{2}}e^{-x}$ we can find bounds for $n$.






        share|cite|improve this answer


























          9












          9








          9






          By Stirling's formula



          $$n! sim sqrt{2pi n} left({frac{n}{e}}right)^n $$



          So we can given a large $n!$ we can attempt to numerically solve,



          $$n!=sqrt{2pi x} left({frac{x}{e}}right)^x$$



          For $x$ by Newton's method to get an approximate inverse.



          The function $mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ given by $f(n)=n!$ is increasing. Also,



          $$sqrt{2pi}n^{n+frac{1}{2}}e^{-n} leq n! leq e n^{n+frac{1}{2}}e^{-n}$$



          So by numerically solving $n!=sqrt{2pi}x^{x+frac{1}{2}}e^{-x}$ and $n!=ex^{x+frac{1}{2}}e^{-x}$ we can find bounds for $n$.






          share|cite|improve this answer














          By Stirling's formula



          $$n! sim sqrt{2pi n} left({frac{n}{e}}right)^n $$



          So we can given a large $n!$ we can attempt to numerically solve,



          $$n!=sqrt{2pi x} left({frac{x}{e}}right)^x$$



          For $x$ by Newton's method to get an approximate inverse.



          The function $mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ given by $f(n)=n!$ is increasing. Also,



          $$sqrt{2pi}n^{n+frac{1}{2}}e^{-n} leq n! leq e n^{n+frac{1}{2}}e^{-n}$$



          So by numerically solving $n!=sqrt{2pi}x^{x+frac{1}{2}}e^{-x}$ and $n!=ex^{x+frac{1}{2}}e^{-x}$ we can find bounds for $n$.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Jan 1 '17 at 14:56









          Martin Sleziak

          44.7k7115270




          44.7k7115270










          answered Jan 1 '17 at 1:32









          Ahmed S. Attaalla

          14.8k12049




          14.8k12049























              6














              For equations involving
              large factorials,
              I find the elementary inequalities
              $(n/e)^n < n! < (n/e)^{n+1}$
              often useful.



              Once these have been used,
              you can use
              Stirling's approximation.



              These can be proved
              by induction from
              the elementary inequalities
              $(1+1/n)^n < e < (1+1/n)^{n+1}$.






              share|cite|improve this answer

















              • 2




                So let's say 10 coloured marbles are placed in a row for example, what is the minimum number of colours needed to guarantee atleast 10000 different patterns?
                – TripleA
                Jan 1 '17 at 1:36
















              6














              For equations involving
              large factorials,
              I find the elementary inequalities
              $(n/e)^n < n! < (n/e)^{n+1}$
              often useful.



              Once these have been used,
              you can use
              Stirling's approximation.



              These can be proved
              by induction from
              the elementary inequalities
              $(1+1/n)^n < e < (1+1/n)^{n+1}$.






              share|cite|improve this answer

















              • 2




                So let's say 10 coloured marbles are placed in a row for example, what is the minimum number of colours needed to guarantee atleast 10000 different patterns?
                – TripleA
                Jan 1 '17 at 1:36














              6












              6








              6






              For equations involving
              large factorials,
              I find the elementary inequalities
              $(n/e)^n < n! < (n/e)^{n+1}$
              often useful.



              Once these have been used,
              you can use
              Stirling's approximation.



              These can be proved
              by induction from
              the elementary inequalities
              $(1+1/n)^n < e < (1+1/n)^{n+1}$.






              share|cite|improve this answer












              For equations involving
              large factorials,
              I find the elementary inequalities
              $(n/e)^n < n! < (n/e)^{n+1}$
              often useful.



              Once these have been used,
              you can use
              Stirling's approximation.



              These can be proved
              by induction from
              the elementary inequalities
              $(1+1/n)^n < e < (1+1/n)^{n+1}$.







              share|cite|improve this answer












              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer










              answered Jan 1 '17 at 1:30









              marty cohen

              72.6k549127




              72.6k549127








              • 2




                So let's say 10 coloured marbles are placed in a row for example, what is the minimum number of colours needed to guarantee atleast 10000 different patterns?
                – TripleA
                Jan 1 '17 at 1:36














              • 2




                So let's say 10 coloured marbles are placed in a row for example, what is the minimum number of colours needed to guarantee atleast 10000 different patterns?
                – TripleA
                Jan 1 '17 at 1:36








              2




              2




              So let's say 10 coloured marbles are placed in a row for example, what is the minimum number of colours needed to guarantee atleast 10000 different patterns?
              – TripleA
              Jan 1 '17 at 1:36




              So let's say 10 coloured marbles are placed in a row for example, what is the minimum number of colours needed to guarantee atleast 10000 different patterns?
              – TripleA
              Jan 1 '17 at 1:36











              3














              Would you be fine with an algorithm instead of a mathematical function?



              Solve $nPx = p$ for $x$:



              x = 0
              while p > 1:
              p /= n
              n--
              x++
              return x


              Solve $xPr = p$ for $x$:



              x = r
              while p > 1:
              x++
              p /= x
              return x


              Solve $x!=y$ for $x$:



              x = 1
              while y > 1:
              x++
              y /= x
              return x


              Your example problem can be modeled without the factorial function pretty easily. I'm assuming two marbles with the same color are indistinguishable, that we have at least 10 marbles of each color, and that the order of the marbles matters:



              $$
              x^{10}ge10000\
              xge10000^{1/10}approx2.512\
              x=3
              $$






              share|cite|improve this answer




























                3














                Would you be fine with an algorithm instead of a mathematical function?



                Solve $nPx = p$ for $x$:



                x = 0
                while p > 1:
                p /= n
                n--
                x++
                return x


                Solve $xPr = p$ for $x$:



                x = r
                while p > 1:
                x++
                p /= x
                return x


                Solve $x!=y$ for $x$:



                x = 1
                while y > 1:
                x++
                y /= x
                return x


                Your example problem can be modeled without the factorial function pretty easily. I'm assuming two marbles with the same color are indistinguishable, that we have at least 10 marbles of each color, and that the order of the marbles matters:



                $$
                x^{10}ge10000\
                xge10000^{1/10}approx2.512\
                x=3
                $$






                share|cite|improve this answer


























                  3












                  3








                  3






                  Would you be fine with an algorithm instead of a mathematical function?



                  Solve $nPx = p$ for $x$:



                  x = 0
                  while p > 1:
                  p /= n
                  n--
                  x++
                  return x


                  Solve $xPr = p$ for $x$:



                  x = r
                  while p > 1:
                  x++
                  p /= x
                  return x


                  Solve $x!=y$ for $x$:



                  x = 1
                  while y > 1:
                  x++
                  y /= x
                  return x


                  Your example problem can be modeled without the factorial function pretty easily. I'm assuming two marbles with the same color are indistinguishable, that we have at least 10 marbles of each color, and that the order of the marbles matters:



                  $$
                  x^{10}ge10000\
                  xge10000^{1/10}approx2.512\
                  x=3
                  $$






                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  Would you be fine with an algorithm instead of a mathematical function?



                  Solve $nPx = p$ for $x$:



                  x = 0
                  while p > 1:
                  p /= n
                  n--
                  x++
                  return x


                  Solve $xPr = p$ for $x$:



                  x = r
                  while p > 1:
                  x++
                  p /= x
                  return x


                  Solve $x!=y$ for $x$:



                  x = 1
                  while y > 1:
                  x++
                  y /= x
                  return x


                  Your example problem can be modeled without the factorial function pretty easily. I'm assuming two marbles with the same color are indistinguishable, that we have at least 10 marbles of each color, and that the order of the marbles matters:



                  $$
                  x^{10}ge10000\
                  xge10000^{1/10}approx2.512\
                  x=3
                  $$







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Jan 1 '17 at 3:39

























                  answered Jan 1 '17 at 3:19









                  TheNumberOne

                  26818




                  26818























                      -1














                      The inverse function of $y = x!$ means getting x in terms of $y$ , i.e $x =$ the largest number in factorisation of y as a factorial.(Where factorising as a factorial means you divide $y$ by $2$, then $3$ and so on. You stop when you get $1$) For example let $5040 = x! , x = ?$



                      Factoring $5040$ as a factorial $5040= 7times 6times 5times 4times 3times 2times 1$ , and $7$ is the largest number of that factorial $implies x = 7$
                      In your problem $8!/336 = (8 – r)! , r = ?$



                      $8!/336 = 120$ , let $(8 – r) = x$ , hence $120 = x! , x = ?$



                      $120 = 5times 4times 3times 2times 1$, and the largest number of that factorial $ = x = 5 = (8 – r) implies r = 3.$






                      share|cite|improve this answer























                      • Welcome to MSE. Please try to use MathJax -- it makes your answer more readable and increases the chance being read by other users.
                        – James
                        Dec 10 '18 at 13:12
















                      -1














                      The inverse function of $y = x!$ means getting x in terms of $y$ , i.e $x =$ the largest number in factorisation of y as a factorial.(Where factorising as a factorial means you divide $y$ by $2$, then $3$ and so on. You stop when you get $1$) For example let $5040 = x! , x = ?$



                      Factoring $5040$ as a factorial $5040= 7times 6times 5times 4times 3times 2times 1$ , and $7$ is the largest number of that factorial $implies x = 7$
                      In your problem $8!/336 = (8 – r)! , r = ?$



                      $8!/336 = 120$ , let $(8 – r) = x$ , hence $120 = x! , x = ?$



                      $120 = 5times 4times 3times 2times 1$, and the largest number of that factorial $ = x = 5 = (8 – r) implies r = 3.$






                      share|cite|improve this answer























                      • Welcome to MSE. Please try to use MathJax -- it makes your answer more readable and increases the chance being read by other users.
                        – James
                        Dec 10 '18 at 13:12














                      -1












                      -1








                      -1






                      The inverse function of $y = x!$ means getting x in terms of $y$ , i.e $x =$ the largest number in factorisation of y as a factorial.(Where factorising as a factorial means you divide $y$ by $2$, then $3$ and so on. You stop when you get $1$) For example let $5040 = x! , x = ?$



                      Factoring $5040$ as a factorial $5040= 7times 6times 5times 4times 3times 2times 1$ , and $7$ is the largest number of that factorial $implies x = 7$
                      In your problem $8!/336 = (8 – r)! , r = ?$



                      $8!/336 = 120$ , let $(8 – r) = x$ , hence $120 = x! , x = ?$



                      $120 = 5times 4times 3times 2times 1$, and the largest number of that factorial $ = x = 5 = (8 – r) implies r = 3.$






                      share|cite|improve this answer














                      The inverse function of $y = x!$ means getting x in terms of $y$ , i.e $x =$ the largest number in factorisation of y as a factorial.(Where factorising as a factorial means you divide $y$ by $2$, then $3$ and so on. You stop when you get $1$) For example let $5040 = x! , x = ?$



                      Factoring $5040$ as a factorial $5040= 7times 6times 5times 4times 3times 2times 1$ , and $7$ is the largest number of that factorial $implies x = 7$
                      In your problem $8!/336 = (8 – r)! , r = ?$



                      $8!/336 = 120$ , let $(8 – r) = x$ , hence $120 = x! , x = ?$



                      $120 = 5times 4times 3times 2times 1$, and the largest number of that factorial $ = x = 5 = (8 – r) implies r = 3.$







                      share|cite|improve this answer














                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      edited Dec 10 '18 at 13:25









                      amWhy

                      192k28224439




                      192k28224439










                      answered Dec 10 '18 at 12:21









                      A.Eriba

                      1




                      1












                      • Welcome to MSE. Please try to use MathJax -- it makes your answer more readable and increases the chance being read by other users.
                        – James
                        Dec 10 '18 at 13:12


















                      • Welcome to MSE. Please try to use MathJax -- it makes your answer more readable and increases the chance being read by other users.
                        – James
                        Dec 10 '18 at 13:12
















                      Welcome to MSE. Please try to use MathJax -- it makes your answer more readable and increases the chance being read by other users.
                      – James
                      Dec 10 '18 at 13:12




                      Welcome to MSE. Please try to use MathJax -- it makes your answer more readable and increases the chance being read by other users.
                      – James
                      Dec 10 '18 at 13:12


















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