Minimal pair [y] – [y:] in Latin
Are there minimal pairs distinguished only by length of [y] in Latin? Was the short variant of /y/ pronounced like [ʏ]?
classical-latin vocabulary phonology
edited Jan 13 at 13:39
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
47.4k1164274
asked Dec 29 '18 at 15:32
Дмитрий БорисовДмитрий Борисов
483
add a comment |
Are there minimal pairs distinguished only by length of [y] in Latin? Was the short variant of /y/ pronounced like [ʏ]?
classical-latin vocabulary phonology
edited Jan 13 at 13:39
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
47.4k1164274
asked Dec 29 '18 at 15:32
Дмитрий БорисовДмитрий Борисов
483
Is puro pyro of any interest?
– Hugh
Dec 30 '18 at 12:02
1
@Hugh No, only pairs like Lўsis - Lȳsis are of any interest to me.
– Дмитрий Борисов
Dec 30 '18 at 14:01
add a comment |
Are there minimal pairs distinguished only by length of [y] in Latin? Was the short variant of /y/ pronounced like [ʏ]?
classical-latin vocabulary phonology
edited Jan 13 at 13:39
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
47.4k1164274
asked Dec 29 '18 at 15:32
Дмитрий БорисовДмитрий Борисов
483
Are there minimal pairs distinguished only by length of [y] in Latin? Was the short variant of /y/ pronounced like [ʏ]?
classical-latin vocabulary phonology
classical-latin vocabulary phonology
edited Jan 13 at 13:39
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
47.4k1164274
asked Dec 29 '18 at 15:32
Дмитрий БорисовДмитрий Борисов
483
edited Jan 13 at 13:39
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
47.4k1164274
asked Dec 29 '18 at 15:32
Дмитрий БорисовДмитрий Борисов
483
edited Jan 13 at 13:39
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
47.4k1164274
edited Jan 13 at 13:39
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
47.4k1164274
edited Jan 13 at 13:39
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
47.4k1164274
47.4k1164274
asked Dec 29 '18 at 15:32
Дмитрий БорисовДмитрий Борисов
483
asked Dec 29 '18 at 15:32
Дмитрий БорисовДмитрий Борисов
483
asked Dec 29 '18 at 15:32
Дмитрий БорисовДмитрий Борисов
483
483
Is puro pyro of any interest?
– Hugh
Dec 30 '18 at 12:02
1
@Hugh No, only pairs like Lўsis - Lȳsis are of any interest to me.
– Дмитрий Борисов
Dec 30 '18 at 14:01
add a comment |
Is puro pyro of any interest?
– Hugh
Dec 30 '18 at 12:02
1
@Hugh No, only pairs like Lўsis - Lȳsis are of any interest to me.
– Дмитрий Борисов
Dec 30 '18 at 14:01
Is puro pyro of any interest?
– Hugh
Dec 30 '18 at 12:02
Is puro pyro of any interest?
– Hugh
Dec 30 '18 at 12:02
1
1
@Hugh No, only pairs like Lўsis - Lȳsis are of any interest to me.
– Дмитрий Борисов
Dec 30 '18 at 14:01
@Hugh No, only pairs like Lўsis - Lȳsis are of any interest to me.
– Дмитрий Борисов
Dec 30 '18 at 14:01
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
Great question!
I was previously unaware of any such pair, but browsing Lewis and Short (available online in various forms) brought up these:
lўsis: loosening, rupture, talon, ogee
Lўsis: a Pythagorean of Tarentum, instructor of Epaminondas
Lȳsis: a small river in Asia Minor
The letter is so rare in Latin that I doubt there are examples without Greek names.
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:26
Joonas Ilmavirta♦Joonas Ilmavirta
47.4k1164274
add a comment |
The existence of /y/ and /y:/ in Classical Latin is mainly postulated as a part of non-nativized pronunciations for loanwords from Greek. Vowel length was phonemically distinctive for Y in Greek, and it was accordingly distinctive in Latin as well.
In the popular language, it is thought that merger with /i/ and /i:/ was a possibility already in classical times.
My impression is that it is rather difficult to determine at which points in time Latin did or did not have qualitative distinctions between corresponding long and short vowels. It does seem plausible that [ʏ] would have been used alongside [ɪ] and [ʊ], but I don’t think we really have any actual evidence for this.
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:37
sumelicsumelic
7,11311649
add a comment |
With respect to latter portion of the question only, I agree with @sumelic's answer that it is unlikely we have actual evidence of a qualitative difference between /y:/ and /y/, but I will supplement that with the following considerations:
1) It is generally thought that the Latin high vowels were somewhat lowered in Classical times to [ɪ] and [ʊ]. If that was the case, I think there would be a natural tendency to lower short Y too, to [ʏ].
2) On the other hand, /y/ was not a native Latin sound, and I've never seen any evidence that Greek short ι and υ were qualitatively any different from their long equivalents. That being the case, an educated Latin speaker would be likely to pronounce short Y as in Greek, viz. [y].
So, I think there are arguments for both possibilities, and it's quite likely (in my opinion) that both could be used by different speakers.
answered Dec 29 '18 at 18:16
varrovarro
3,7051315
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Great question!
I was previously unaware of any such pair, but browsing Lewis and Short (available online in various forms) brought up these:
lўsis: loosening, rupture, talon, ogee
Lўsis: a Pythagorean of Tarentum, instructor of Epaminondas
Lȳsis: a small river in Asia Minor
The letter is so rare in Latin that I doubt there are examples without Greek names.
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:26
Joonas Ilmavirta♦Joonas Ilmavirta
47.4k1164274
add a comment |
Great question!
I was previously unaware of any such pair, but browsing Lewis and Short (available online in various forms) brought up these:
lўsis: loosening, rupture, talon, ogee
Lўsis: a Pythagorean of Tarentum, instructor of Epaminondas
Lȳsis: a small river in Asia Minor
The letter is so rare in Latin that I doubt there are examples without Greek names.
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:26
Joonas Ilmavirta♦Joonas Ilmavirta
47.4k1164274
add a comment |
Great question!
I was previously unaware of any such pair, but browsing Lewis and Short (available online in various forms) brought up these:
lўsis: loosening, rupture, talon, ogee
Lўsis: a Pythagorean of Tarentum, instructor of Epaminondas
Lȳsis: a small river in Asia Minor
The letter is so rare in Latin that I doubt there are examples without Greek names.
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:26
Joonas Ilmavirta♦Joonas Ilmavirta
47.4k1164274
Great question!
I was previously unaware of any such pair, but browsing Lewis and Short (available online in various forms) brought up these:
lўsis: loosening, rupture, talon, ogee
Lўsis: a Pythagorean of Tarentum, instructor of Epaminondas
Lȳsis: a small river in Asia Minor
The letter is so rare in Latin that I doubt there are examples without Greek names.
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:26
Joonas Ilmavirta♦Joonas Ilmavirta
47.4k1164274
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:26
Joonas Ilmavirta♦Joonas Ilmavirta
47.4k1164274
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:26
Joonas Ilmavirta♦Joonas Ilmavirta
47.4k1164274
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:26
Joonas Ilmavirta♦Joonas Ilmavirta
47.4k1164274
47.4k1164274
add a comment |
add a comment |
The existence of /y/ and /y:/ in Classical Latin is mainly postulated as a part of non-nativized pronunciations for loanwords from Greek. Vowel length was phonemically distinctive for Y in Greek, and it was accordingly distinctive in Latin as well.
In the popular language, it is thought that merger with /i/ and /i:/ was a possibility already in classical times.
My impression is that it is rather difficult to determine at which points in time Latin did or did not have qualitative distinctions between corresponding long and short vowels. It does seem plausible that [ʏ] would have been used alongside [ɪ] and [ʊ], but I don’t think we really have any actual evidence for this.
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:37
sumelicsumelic
7,11311649
add a comment |
The existence of /y/ and /y:/ in Classical Latin is mainly postulated as a part of non-nativized pronunciations for loanwords from Greek. Vowel length was phonemically distinctive for Y in Greek, and it was accordingly distinctive in Latin as well.
In the popular language, it is thought that merger with /i/ and /i:/ was a possibility already in classical times.
My impression is that it is rather difficult to determine at which points in time Latin did or did not have qualitative distinctions between corresponding long and short vowels. It does seem plausible that [ʏ] would have been used alongside [ɪ] and [ʊ], but I don’t think we really have any actual evidence for this.
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:37
sumelicsumelic
7,11311649
add a comment |
The existence of /y/ and /y:/ in Classical Latin is mainly postulated as a part of non-nativized pronunciations for loanwords from Greek. Vowel length was phonemically distinctive for Y in Greek, and it was accordingly distinctive in Latin as well.
In the popular language, it is thought that merger with /i/ and /i:/ was a possibility already in classical times.
My impression is that it is rather difficult to determine at which points in time Latin did or did not have qualitative distinctions between corresponding long and short vowels. It does seem plausible that [ʏ] would have been used alongside [ɪ] and [ʊ], but I don’t think we really have any actual evidence for this.
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:37
sumelicsumelic
7,11311649
The existence of /y/ and /y:/ in Classical Latin is mainly postulated as a part of non-nativized pronunciations for loanwords from Greek. Vowel length was phonemically distinctive for Y in Greek, and it was accordingly distinctive in Latin as well.
In the popular language, it is thought that merger with /i/ and /i:/ was a possibility already in classical times.
My impression is that it is rather difficult to determine at which points in time Latin did or did not have qualitative distinctions between corresponding long and short vowels. It does seem plausible that [ʏ] would have been used alongside [ɪ] and [ʊ], but I don’t think we really have any actual evidence for this.
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:37
sumelicsumelic
7,11311649
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:37
sumelicsumelic
7,11311649
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:37
sumelicsumelic
7,11311649
answered Dec 29 '18 at 17:37
sumelicsumelic
7,11311649
7,11311649
add a comment |
add a comment |
With respect to latter portion of the question only, I agree with @sumelic's answer that it is unlikely we have actual evidence of a qualitative difference between /y:/ and /y/, but I will supplement that with the following considerations:
1) It is generally thought that the Latin high vowels were somewhat lowered in Classical times to [ɪ] and [ʊ]. If that was the case, I think there would be a natural tendency to lower short Y too, to [ʏ].
2) On the other hand, /y/ was not a native Latin sound, and I've never seen any evidence that Greek short ι and υ were qualitatively any different from their long equivalents. That being the case, an educated Latin speaker would be likely to pronounce short Y as in Greek, viz. [y].
So, I think there are arguments for both possibilities, and it's quite likely (in my opinion) that both could be used by different speakers.
answered Dec 29 '18 at 18:16
varrovarro
3,7051315
add a comment |
With respect to latter portion of the question only, I agree with @sumelic's answer that it is unlikely we have actual evidence of a qualitative difference between /y:/ and /y/, but I will supplement that with the following considerations:
1) It is generally thought that the Latin high vowels were somewhat lowered in Classical times to [ɪ] and [ʊ]. If that was the case, I think there would be a natural tendency to lower short Y too, to [ʏ].
2) On the other hand, /y/ was not a native Latin sound, and I've never seen any evidence that Greek short ι and υ were qualitatively any different from their long equivalents. That being the case, an educated Latin speaker would be likely to pronounce short Y as in Greek, viz. [y].
So, I think there are arguments for both possibilities, and it's quite likely (in my opinion) that both could be used by different speakers.
answered Dec 29 '18 at 18:16
varrovarro
3,7051315
add a comment |
With respect to latter portion of the question only, I agree with @sumelic's answer that it is unlikely we have actual evidence of a qualitative difference between /y:/ and /y/, but I will supplement that with the following considerations:
1) It is generally thought that the Latin high vowels were somewhat lowered in Classical times to [ɪ] and [ʊ]. If that was the case, I think there would be a natural tendency to lower short Y too, to [ʏ].
2) On the other hand, /y/ was not a native Latin sound, and I've never seen any evidence that Greek short ι and υ were qualitatively any different from their long equivalents. That being the case, an educated Latin speaker would be likely to pronounce short Y as in Greek, viz. [y].
So, I think there are arguments for both possibilities, and it's quite likely (in my opinion) that both could be used by different speakers.
answered Dec 29 '18 at 18:16
varrovarro
3,7051315
With respect to latter portion of the question only, I agree with @sumelic's answer that it is unlikely we have actual evidence of a qualitative difference between /y:/ and /y/, but I will supplement that with the following considerations:
1) It is generally thought that the Latin high vowels were somewhat lowered in Classical times to [ɪ] and [ʊ]. If that was the case, I think there would be a natural tendency to lower short Y too, to [ʏ].
2) On the other hand, /y/ was not a native Latin sound, and I've never seen any evidence that Greek short ι and υ were qualitatively any different from their long equivalents. That being the case, an educated Latin speaker would be likely to pronounce short Y as in Greek, viz. [y].
So, I think there are arguments for both possibilities, and it's quite likely (in my opinion) that both could be used by different speakers.
answered Dec 29 '18 at 18:16
varrovarro
3,7051315
edited Dec 29 '18 at 18:22
answered Dec 29 '18 at 18:16
varrovarro
3,7051315
answered Dec 29 '18 at 18:16
varrovarro
3,7051315
answered Dec 29 '18 at 18:16
varrovarro
3,7051315
3,7051315
add a comment |
add a comment |
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Is puro pyro of any interest?
– Hugh
Dec 30 '18 at 12:02
1
@Hugh No, only pairs like Lўsis - Lȳsis are of any interest to me.
– Дмитрий Борисов
Dec 30 '18 at 14:01