Dimension of a linear space in $mathbb{P}^{n}$ (Schubert Calculus)
$begingroup$
I am reading about Schubert calculus and have come across this definition of a linear space:
A linear space $L$ in $mathbb{P}^{n}$ is defined as the set of points $P = (p(0), p(1), ldots, p(n))$ of $mathbb{P}^{n}$ whose coordinates $p(j)$ satisfy a system of linear equations $sum_{j=0}^{n} b_{alpha j}p(j) = 0$, where $alpha = 1, ldots, (n-d)$. [Here, I get confused: ] We say that $L$ is $d$-dimensional if these $(n-d)$ equations are independent, that is if the $(n-d)times (n+1)$ matrix of coefficients $[b_{alpha j}]$ has a nonzero $(n-d) times (n-d)$ minor.
I would have thought that this space is of dimension $(n+1)$. Maybe because each equation is zero and the $p(j)$ satisfy such an equation, in each combination there is an "extra" vector by dependence. Thus, this leaves $(d+1)$ independent vectors, but not $d$ (this may have to do with the fact that we are in $mathbb{P}^{n}$).
Any help is appreciated.
linear-algebra abstract-algebra algebraic-geometry projective-space schubert-calculus
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am reading about Schubert calculus and have come across this definition of a linear space:
A linear space $L$ in $mathbb{P}^{n}$ is defined as the set of points $P = (p(0), p(1), ldots, p(n))$ of $mathbb{P}^{n}$ whose coordinates $p(j)$ satisfy a system of linear equations $sum_{j=0}^{n} b_{alpha j}p(j) = 0$, where $alpha = 1, ldots, (n-d)$. [Here, I get confused: ] We say that $L$ is $d$-dimensional if these $(n-d)$ equations are independent, that is if the $(n-d)times (n+1)$ matrix of coefficients $[b_{alpha j}]$ has a nonzero $(n-d) times (n-d)$ minor.
I would have thought that this space is of dimension $(n+1)$. Maybe because each equation is zero and the $p(j)$ satisfy such an equation, in each combination there is an "extra" vector by dependence. Thus, this leaves $(d+1)$ independent vectors, but not $d$ (this may have to do with the fact that we are in $mathbb{P}^{n}$).
Any help is appreciated.
linear-algebra abstract-algebra algebraic-geometry projective-space schubert-calculus
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am reading about Schubert calculus and have come across this definition of a linear space:
A linear space $L$ in $mathbb{P}^{n}$ is defined as the set of points $P = (p(0), p(1), ldots, p(n))$ of $mathbb{P}^{n}$ whose coordinates $p(j)$ satisfy a system of linear equations $sum_{j=0}^{n} b_{alpha j}p(j) = 0$, where $alpha = 1, ldots, (n-d)$. [Here, I get confused: ] We say that $L$ is $d$-dimensional if these $(n-d)$ equations are independent, that is if the $(n-d)times (n+1)$ matrix of coefficients $[b_{alpha j}]$ has a nonzero $(n-d) times (n-d)$ minor.
I would have thought that this space is of dimension $(n+1)$. Maybe because each equation is zero and the $p(j)$ satisfy such an equation, in each combination there is an "extra" vector by dependence. Thus, this leaves $(d+1)$ independent vectors, but not $d$ (this may have to do with the fact that we are in $mathbb{P}^{n}$).
Any help is appreciated.
linear-algebra abstract-algebra algebraic-geometry projective-space schubert-calculus
$endgroup$
I am reading about Schubert calculus and have come across this definition of a linear space:
A linear space $L$ in $mathbb{P}^{n}$ is defined as the set of points $P = (p(0), p(1), ldots, p(n))$ of $mathbb{P}^{n}$ whose coordinates $p(j)$ satisfy a system of linear equations $sum_{j=0}^{n} b_{alpha j}p(j) = 0$, where $alpha = 1, ldots, (n-d)$. [Here, I get confused: ] We say that $L$ is $d$-dimensional if these $(n-d)$ equations are independent, that is if the $(n-d)times (n+1)$ matrix of coefficients $[b_{alpha j}]$ has a nonzero $(n-d) times (n-d)$ minor.
I would have thought that this space is of dimension $(n+1)$. Maybe because each equation is zero and the $p(j)$ satisfy such an equation, in each combination there is an "extra" vector by dependence. Thus, this leaves $(d+1)$ independent vectors, but not $d$ (this may have to do with the fact that we are in $mathbb{P}^{n}$).
Any help is appreciated.
linear-algebra abstract-algebra algebraic-geometry projective-space schubert-calculus
linear-algebra abstract-algebra algebraic-geometry projective-space schubert-calculus
edited Jan 5 at 12:37
Matt Samuel
38.8k63769
38.8k63769
asked Sep 26 '15 at 3:25
FredFred
61459
61459
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Think of how $mathbb P^n$ is defined:
$$mathbb P^n = mathbb K^{n+1}setminus {0} /sim, $$
where $vec x sim vec y$ if they are proportional. Now the matrix $B$ is nondegenerate, so the linear map $B : mathbb K^{n+1} to mathbb K^{n+1}$ has a $d+1$ dimensional Kernel $tilde L$.
However, when you take quotient $sim$, then $L = tilde Lsetminus{0} /sim$ has one less dimension (The reason is the same as why $mathbb P^n$ is $n$-dimensional instead of $n+1$-dimensional).
Note that you might think that it is an (established) abuse of languages to call that $L$ linear: $mathbb P^n$ is not a vector space, after all.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This really cleared things up. Thank you.
$endgroup$
– Fred
Sep 26 '15 at 4:22
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The reason for the "off-by-one" error you are seeing is that in projective space, points are really given by equivalence classes of coordinates. Therefore the point
$$
(p_0,p_1,p_2,ldots,p_n)
$$
is in the same equivalence class as
$$
(lambda p_0,lambda p_1,lambda p_2,ldots,lambda p_n),
$$
for any $lambdanot=0$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I figure I'll add my two cents as well, even though the other answers are also good. I agree that it is confusing that projective dimension is always one less than the vector space dimension. You have to be careful to specify which you mean. However there is a good reason for this double usage of the term, using geometric intuition.
We can view a vector space and its subspaces geometrically; the zero vector is included in every subspace. So one nonzero vector determines a line ($1$-dimensional), and two linearly independent vectors form a plane ($2$-dimensional). Moving to a projective setting, one nonzero vector now determines only a point ($0$-dimensional) while two linearly independent vectors form a line ($1$-dimensional). We need three linearly independent vectors to give a triangle/plane ($2$-dimensional) in this setting. So really the dimension can be interpreted in a geometric way.
Of course when we deal with a projective space in analytic geometry, we have the complication that we need to keep track of both systems simultaneously: we are representing geometric objects in the projective setting with geometric objects in a vector space setting. The same object has a different geometric dimension, depending on the point of view (i.e. a $(d+1)$-dimensional vector subspace corresponds to a $d$-dimensional projective subspace).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This was really helpful! Also, a sort-of-off-topic question: I've seen projective space defined as the set of lines through the origin of a vector space. This seems almost contrary to what I'd think of as projective space - but I'm thinking that if we had some line $ell$ that crosses the $x$-axis at $x = k neq 0$, then we have a point $(k, 0) in ell$ which is really part of the "point" $[1:0] in mathbb{P}^{2}$. Therefore the line sort of collapses into the origin and hence any line in $mathbb{P}^{n}$ is aline through the origin. Is this correct? Thanks.
$endgroup$
– Fred
Sep 26 '15 at 19:48
1
$begingroup$
@Mike Not sure I really understand; $ell$ is a "line" in the vector space, but not passing through the origin? I don't know that there is really a good way to interpret this in the projective space. But yes, two good ways of thinking of the projective space are as the collection of lines through the origin (so you are just getting the collection of points in this way); or as the collection of all vector subspaces (so subspaces of different dimension are interpreted as different types of geometric objects in the projective space; points, lines, planes, etc.).
$endgroup$
– Morgan Rodgers
Sep 27 '15 at 15:38
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Think of how $mathbb P^n$ is defined:
$$mathbb P^n = mathbb K^{n+1}setminus {0} /sim, $$
where $vec x sim vec y$ if they are proportional. Now the matrix $B$ is nondegenerate, so the linear map $B : mathbb K^{n+1} to mathbb K^{n+1}$ has a $d+1$ dimensional Kernel $tilde L$.
However, when you take quotient $sim$, then $L = tilde Lsetminus{0} /sim$ has one less dimension (The reason is the same as why $mathbb P^n$ is $n$-dimensional instead of $n+1$-dimensional).
Note that you might think that it is an (established) abuse of languages to call that $L$ linear: $mathbb P^n$ is not a vector space, after all.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This really cleared things up. Thank you.
$endgroup$
– Fred
Sep 26 '15 at 4:22
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Think of how $mathbb P^n$ is defined:
$$mathbb P^n = mathbb K^{n+1}setminus {0} /sim, $$
where $vec x sim vec y$ if they are proportional. Now the matrix $B$ is nondegenerate, so the linear map $B : mathbb K^{n+1} to mathbb K^{n+1}$ has a $d+1$ dimensional Kernel $tilde L$.
However, when you take quotient $sim$, then $L = tilde Lsetminus{0} /sim$ has one less dimension (The reason is the same as why $mathbb P^n$ is $n$-dimensional instead of $n+1$-dimensional).
Note that you might think that it is an (established) abuse of languages to call that $L$ linear: $mathbb P^n$ is not a vector space, after all.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This really cleared things up. Thank you.
$endgroup$
– Fred
Sep 26 '15 at 4:22
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Think of how $mathbb P^n$ is defined:
$$mathbb P^n = mathbb K^{n+1}setminus {0} /sim, $$
where $vec x sim vec y$ if they are proportional. Now the matrix $B$ is nondegenerate, so the linear map $B : mathbb K^{n+1} to mathbb K^{n+1}$ has a $d+1$ dimensional Kernel $tilde L$.
However, when you take quotient $sim$, then $L = tilde Lsetminus{0} /sim$ has one less dimension (The reason is the same as why $mathbb P^n$ is $n$-dimensional instead of $n+1$-dimensional).
Note that you might think that it is an (established) abuse of languages to call that $L$ linear: $mathbb P^n$ is not a vector space, after all.
$endgroup$
Think of how $mathbb P^n$ is defined:
$$mathbb P^n = mathbb K^{n+1}setminus {0} /sim, $$
where $vec x sim vec y$ if they are proportional. Now the matrix $B$ is nondegenerate, so the linear map $B : mathbb K^{n+1} to mathbb K^{n+1}$ has a $d+1$ dimensional Kernel $tilde L$.
However, when you take quotient $sim$, then $L = tilde Lsetminus{0} /sim$ has one less dimension (The reason is the same as why $mathbb P^n$ is $n$-dimensional instead of $n+1$-dimensional).
Note that you might think that it is an (established) abuse of languages to call that $L$ linear: $mathbb P^n$ is not a vector space, after all.
edited Sep 26 '15 at 7:10
answered Sep 26 '15 at 3:35
user99914
$begingroup$
This really cleared things up. Thank you.
$endgroup$
– Fred
Sep 26 '15 at 4:22
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This really cleared things up. Thank you.
$endgroup$
– Fred
Sep 26 '15 at 4:22
$begingroup$
This really cleared things up. Thank you.
$endgroup$
– Fred
Sep 26 '15 at 4:22
$begingroup$
This really cleared things up. Thank you.
$endgroup$
– Fred
Sep 26 '15 at 4:22
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The reason for the "off-by-one" error you are seeing is that in projective space, points are really given by equivalence classes of coordinates. Therefore the point
$$
(p_0,p_1,p_2,ldots,p_n)
$$
is in the same equivalence class as
$$
(lambda p_0,lambda p_1,lambda p_2,ldots,lambda p_n),
$$
for any $lambdanot=0$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The reason for the "off-by-one" error you are seeing is that in projective space, points are really given by equivalence classes of coordinates. Therefore the point
$$
(p_0,p_1,p_2,ldots,p_n)
$$
is in the same equivalence class as
$$
(lambda p_0,lambda p_1,lambda p_2,ldots,lambda p_n),
$$
for any $lambdanot=0$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The reason for the "off-by-one" error you are seeing is that in projective space, points are really given by equivalence classes of coordinates. Therefore the point
$$
(p_0,p_1,p_2,ldots,p_n)
$$
is in the same equivalence class as
$$
(lambda p_0,lambda p_1,lambda p_2,ldots,lambda p_n),
$$
for any $lambdanot=0$.
$endgroup$
The reason for the "off-by-one" error you are seeing is that in projective space, points are really given by equivalence classes of coordinates. Therefore the point
$$
(p_0,p_1,p_2,ldots,p_n)
$$
is in the same equivalence class as
$$
(lambda p_0,lambda p_1,lambda p_2,ldots,lambda p_n),
$$
for any $lambdanot=0$.
answered Sep 26 '15 at 3:35
pre-kidneypre-kidney
12.9k1849
12.9k1849
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I figure I'll add my two cents as well, even though the other answers are also good. I agree that it is confusing that projective dimension is always one less than the vector space dimension. You have to be careful to specify which you mean. However there is a good reason for this double usage of the term, using geometric intuition.
We can view a vector space and its subspaces geometrically; the zero vector is included in every subspace. So one nonzero vector determines a line ($1$-dimensional), and two linearly independent vectors form a plane ($2$-dimensional). Moving to a projective setting, one nonzero vector now determines only a point ($0$-dimensional) while two linearly independent vectors form a line ($1$-dimensional). We need three linearly independent vectors to give a triangle/plane ($2$-dimensional) in this setting. So really the dimension can be interpreted in a geometric way.
Of course when we deal with a projective space in analytic geometry, we have the complication that we need to keep track of both systems simultaneously: we are representing geometric objects in the projective setting with geometric objects in a vector space setting. The same object has a different geometric dimension, depending on the point of view (i.e. a $(d+1)$-dimensional vector subspace corresponds to a $d$-dimensional projective subspace).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This was really helpful! Also, a sort-of-off-topic question: I've seen projective space defined as the set of lines through the origin of a vector space. This seems almost contrary to what I'd think of as projective space - but I'm thinking that if we had some line $ell$ that crosses the $x$-axis at $x = k neq 0$, then we have a point $(k, 0) in ell$ which is really part of the "point" $[1:0] in mathbb{P}^{2}$. Therefore the line sort of collapses into the origin and hence any line in $mathbb{P}^{n}$ is aline through the origin. Is this correct? Thanks.
$endgroup$
– Fred
Sep 26 '15 at 19:48
1
$begingroup$
@Mike Not sure I really understand; $ell$ is a "line" in the vector space, but not passing through the origin? I don't know that there is really a good way to interpret this in the projective space. But yes, two good ways of thinking of the projective space are as the collection of lines through the origin (so you are just getting the collection of points in this way); or as the collection of all vector subspaces (so subspaces of different dimension are interpreted as different types of geometric objects in the projective space; points, lines, planes, etc.).
$endgroup$
– Morgan Rodgers
Sep 27 '15 at 15:38
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I figure I'll add my two cents as well, even though the other answers are also good. I agree that it is confusing that projective dimension is always one less than the vector space dimension. You have to be careful to specify which you mean. However there is a good reason for this double usage of the term, using geometric intuition.
We can view a vector space and its subspaces geometrically; the zero vector is included in every subspace. So one nonzero vector determines a line ($1$-dimensional), and two linearly independent vectors form a plane ($2$-dimensional). Moving to a projective setting, one nonzero vector now determines only a point ($0$-dimensional) while two linearly independent vectors form a line ($1$-dimensional). We need three linearly independent vectors to give a triangle/plane ($2$-dimensional) in this setting. So really the dimension can be interpreted in a geometric way.
Of course when we deal with a projective space in analytic geometry, we have the complication that we need to keep track of both systems simultaneously: we are representing geometric objects in the projective setting with geometric objects in a vector space setting. The same object has a different geometric dimension, depending on the point of view (i.e. a $(d+1)$-dimensional vector subspace corresponds to a $d$-dimensional projective subspace).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This was really helpful! Also, a sort-of-off-topic question: I've seen projective space defined as the set of lines through the origin of a vector space. This seems almost contrary to what I'd think of as projective space - but I'm thinking that if we had some line $ell$ that crosses the $x$-axis at $x = k neq 0$, then we have a point $(k, 0) in ell$ which is really part of the "point" $[1:0] in mathbb{P}^{2}$. Therefore the line sort of collapses into the origin and hence any line in $mathbb{P}^{n}$ is aline through the origin. Is this correct? Thanks.
$endgroup$
– Fred
Sep 26 '15 at 19:48
1
$begingroup$
@Mike Not sure I really understand; $ell$ is a "line" in the vector space, but not passing through the origin? I don't know that there is really a good way to interpret this in the projective space. But yes, two good ways of thinking of the projective space are as the collection of lines through the origin (so you are just getting the collection of points in this way); or as the collection of all vector subspaces (so subspaces of different dimension are interpreted as different types of geometric objects in the projective space; points, lines, planes, etc.).
$endgroup$
– Morgan Rodgers
Sep 27 '15 at 15:38
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I figure I'll add my two cents as well, even though the other answers are also good. I agree that it is confusing that projective dimension is always one less than the vector space dimension. You have to be careful to specify which you mean. However there is a good reason for this double usage of the term, using geometric intuition.
We can view a vector space and its subspaces geometrically; the zero vector is included in every subspace. So one nonzero vector determines a line ($1$-dimensional), and two linearly independent vectors form a plane ($2$-dimensional). Moving to a projective setting, one nonzero vector now determines only a point ($0$-dimensional) while two linearly independent vectors form a line ($1$-dimensional). We need three linearly independent vectors to give a triangle/plane ($2$-dimensional) in this setting. So really the dimension can be interpreted in a geometric way.
Of course when we deal with a projective space in analytic geometry, we have the complication that we need to keep track of both systems simultaneously: we are representing geometric objects in the projective setting with geometric objects in a vector space setting. The same object has a different geometric dimension, depending on the point of view (i.e. a $(d+1)$-dimensional vector subspace corresponds to a $d$-dimensional projective subspace).
$endgroup$
I figure I'll add my two cents as well, even though the other answers are also good. I agree that it is confusing that projective dimension is always one less than the vector space dimension. You have to be careful to specify which you mean. However there is a good reason for this double usage of the term, using geometric intuition.
We can view a vector space and its subspaces geometrically; the zero vector is included in every subspace. So one nonzero vector determines a line ($1$-dimensional), and two linearly independent vectors form a plane ($2$-dimensional). Moving to a projective setting, one nonzero vector now determines only a point ($0$-dimensional) while two linearly independent vectors form a line ($1$-dimensional). We need three linearly independent vectors to give a triangle/plane ($2$-dimensional) in this setting. So really the dimension can be interpreted in a geometric way.
Of course when we deal with a projective space in analytic geometry, we have the complication that we need to keep track of both systems simultaneously: we are representing geometric objects in the projective setting with geometric objects in a vector space setting. The same object has a different geometric dimension, depending on the point of view (i.e. a $(d+1)$-dimensional vector subspace corresponds to a $d$-dimensional projective subspace).
answered Sep 26 '15 at 8:04
Morgan RodgersMorgan Rodgers
9,82821440
9,82821440
$begingroup$
This was really helpful! Also, a sort-of-off-topic question: I've seen projective space defined as the set of lines through the origin of a vector space. This seems almost contrary to what I'd think of as projective space - but I'm thinking that if we had some line $ell$ that crosses the $x$-axis at $x = k neq 0$, then we have a point $(k, 0) in ell$ which is really part of the "point" $[1:0] in mathbb{P}^{2}$. Therefore the line sort of collapses into the origin and hence any line in $mathbb{P}^{n}$ is aline through the origin. Is this correct? Thanks.
$endgroup$
– Fred
Sep 26 '15 at 19:48
1
$begingroup$
@Mike Not sure I really understand; $ell$ is a "line" in the vector space, but not passing through the origin? I don't know that there is really a good way to interpret this in the projective space. But yes, two good ways of thinking of the projective space are as the collection of lines through the origin (so you are just getting the collection of points in this way); or as the collection of all vector subspaces (so subspaces of different dimension are interpreted as different types of geometric objects in the projective space; points, lines, planes, etc.).
$endgroup$
– Morgan Rodgers
Sep 27 '15 at 15:38
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This was really helpful! Also, a sort-of-off-topic question: I've seen projective space defined as the set of lines through the origin of a vector space. This seems almost contrary to what I'd think of as projective space - but I'm thinking that if we had some line $ell$ that crosses the $x$-axis at $x = k neq 0$, then we have a point $(k, 0) in ell$ which is really part of the "point" $[1:0] in mathbb{P}^{2}$. Therefore the line sort of collapses into the origin and hence any line in $mathbb{P}^{n}$ is aline through the origin. Is this correct? Thanks.
$endgroup$
– Fred
Sep 26 '15 at 19:48
1
$begingroup$
@Mike Not sure I really understand; $ell$ is a "line" in the vector space, but not passing through the origin? I don't know that there is really a good way to interpret this in the projective space. But yes, two good ways of thinking of the projective space are as the collection of lines through the origin (so you are just getting the collection of points in this way); or as the collection of all vector subspaces (so subspaces of different dimension are interpreted as different types of geometric objects in the projective space; points, lines, planes, etc.).
$endgroup$
– Morgan Rodgers
Sep 27 '15 at 15:38
$begingroup$
This was really helpful! Also, a sort-of-off-topic question: I've seen projective space defined as the set of lines through the origin of a vector space. This seems almost contrary to what I'd think of as projective space - but I'm thinking that if we had some line $ell$ that crosses the $x$-axis at $x = k neq 0$, then we have a point $(k, 0) in ell$ which is really part of the "point" $[1:0] in mathbb{P}^{2}$. Therefore the line sort of collapses into the origin and hence any line in $mathbb{P}^{n}$ is aline through the origin. Is this correct? Thanks.
$endgroup$
– Fred
Sep 26 '15 at 19:48
$begingroup$
This was really helpful! Also, a sort-of-off-topic question: I've seen projective space defined as the set of lines through the origin of a vector space. This seems almost contrary to what I'd think of as projective space - but I'm thinking that if we had some line $ell$ that crosses the $x$-axis at $x = k neq 0$, then we have a point $(k, 0) in ell$ which is really part of the "point" $[1:0] in mathbb{P}^{2}$. Therefore the line sort of collapses into the origin and hence any line in $mathbb{P}^{n}$ is aline through the origin. Is this correct? Thanks.
$endgroup$
– Fred
Sep 26 '15 at 19:48
1
1
$begingroup$
@Mike Not sure I really understand; $ell$ is a "line" in the vector space, but not passing through the origin? I don't know that there is really a good way to interpret this in the projective space. But yes, two good ways of thinking of the projective space are as the collection of lines through the origin (so you are just getting the collection of points in this way); or as the collection of all vector subspaces (so subspaces of different dimension are interpreted as different types of geometric objects in the projective space; points, lines, planes, etc.).
$endgroup$
– Morgan Rodgers
Sep 27 '15 at 15:38
$begingroup$
@Mike Not sure I really understand; $ell$ is a "line" in the vector space, but not passing through the origin? I don't know that there is really a good way to interpret this in the projective space. But yes, two good ways of thinking of the projective space are as the collection of lines through the origin (so you are just getting the collection of points in this way); or as the collection of all vector subspaces (so subspaces of different dimension are interpreted as different types of geometric objects in the projective space; points, lines, planes, etc.).
$endgroup$
– Morgan Rodgers
Sep 27 '15 at 15:38
add a comment |
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