Isn't acknowledging the existence of God, as a state, a contradiction of the separation of Church and State?
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I'm not an expert in politics at all, but I have been wondering about this for a while.
If Church and State are supposed to be separated, isn't it a bit of a contradiction to have "God" so strongly "embedded" in politics? I'm thinking of:
In God we Trust; official motto, printed on money.
[...] so help me God; president swearing-in.
[...] God bless America; pretty much closing every official announcement.
And so on.
How is explicitly acknowledging to believe in God, as a state, not being something that intrinsically goes against the principle of separation?
united-states religion
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I'm not an expert in politics at all, but I have been wondering about this for a while.
If Church and State are supposed to be separated, isn't it a bit of a contradiction to have "God" so strongly "embedded" in politics? I'm thinking of:
In God we Trust; official motto, printed on money.
[...] so help me God; president swearing-in.
[...] God bless America; pretty much closing every official announcement.
And so on.
How is explicitly acknowledging to believe in God, as a state, not being something that intrinsically goes against the principle of separation?
united-states religion
New contributor
5
Those examples don't specify which God is being referred to. I think that is accepted as good enough. Sorry atheists...
– Thomas
yesterday
17
@Thomas which God doesn't really matter here, at least the way I see it.
– Tommy
yesterday
9
@Tommy You may not accept it as good enough, but it seems that legally and politically it is accepted. For the most part "freedom of religion" has historically been about choosing between different abrahamic religions and atheism didn't really enter into it.
– Thomas
yesterday
18
Nitpicking, until 1956 (H. J. Resolution 396) the unofficial motto of the USA was "E pluribus unum" (Out of many, one). Why then? The answer is the cold war. It was seen as important to mark the difference between the US and the "godless communists".
– liftarn
yesterday
6
@Thomas Even if that were true, there are religions in which referring to "God" makes no sense. Buddhism and Taoism aren't built around any God. Hinduism has many gods, none of them supreme.
– David Thornley
yesterday
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up vote
41
down vote
favorite
I'm not an expert in politics at all, but I have been wondering about this for a while.
If Church and State are supposed to be separated, isn't it a bit of a contradiction to have "God" so strongly "embedded" in politics? I'm thinking of:
In God we Trust; official motto, printed on money.
[...] so help me God; president swearing-in.
[...] God bless America; pretty much closing every official announcement.
And so on.
How is explicitly acknowledging to believe in God, as a state, not being something that intrinsically goes against the principle of separation?
united-states religion
New contributor
I'm not an expert in politics at all, but I have been wondering about this for a while.
If Church and State are supposed to be separated, isn't it a bit of a contradiction to have "God" so strongly "embedded" in politics? I'm thinking of:
In God we Trust; official motto, printed on money.
[...] so help me God; president swearing-in.
[...] God bless America; pretty much closing every official announcement.
And so on.
How is explicitly acknowledging to believe in God, as a state, not being something that intrinsically goes against the principle of separation?
united-states religion
united-states religion
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chirlu
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Tommy
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Those examples don't specify which God is being referred to. I think that is accepted as good enough. Sorry atheists...
– Thomas
yesterday
17
@Thomas which God doesn't really matter here, at least the way I see it.
– Tommy
yesterday
9
@Tommy You may not accept it as good enough, but it seems that legally and politically it is accepted. For the most part "freedom of religion" has historically been about choosing between different abrahamic religions and atheism didn't really enter into it.
– Thomas
yesterday
18
Nitpicking, until 1956 (H. J. Resolution 396) the unofficial motto of the USA was "E pluribus unum" (Out of many, one). Why then? The answer is the cold war. It was seen as important to mark the difference between the US and the "godless communists".
– liftarn
yesterday
6
@Thomas Even if that were true, there are religions in which referring to "God" makes no sense. Buddhism and Taoism aren't built around any God. Hinduism has many gods, none of them supreme.
– David Thornley
yesterday
|
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5
Those examples don't specify which God is being referred to. I think that is accepted as good enough. Sorry atheists...
– Thomas
yesterday
17
@Thomas which God doesn't really matter here, at least the way I see it.
– Tommy
yesterday
9
@Tommy You may not accept it as good enough, but it seems that legally and politically it is accepted. For the most part "freedom of religion" has historically been about choosing between different abrahamic religions and atheism didn't really enter into it.
– Thomas
yesterday
18
Nitpicking, until 1956 (H. J. Resolution 396) the unofficial motto of the USA was "E pluribus unum" (Out of many, one). Why then? The answer is the cold war. It was seen as important to mark the difference between the US and the "godless communists".
– liftarn
yesterday
6
@Thomas Even if that were true, there are religions in which referring to "God" makes no sense. Buddhism and Taoism aren't built around any God. Hinduism has many gods, none of them supreme.
– David Thornley
yesterday
5
5
Those examples don't specify which God is being referred to. I think that is accepted as good enough. Sorry atheists...
– Thomas
yesterday
Those examples don't specify which God is being referred to. I think that is accepted as good enough. Sorry atheists...
– Thomas
yesterday
17
17
@Thomas which God doesn't really matter here, at least the way I see it.
– Tommy
yesterday
@Thomas which God doesn't really matter here, at least the way I see it.
– Tommy
yesterday
9
9
@Tommy You may not accept it as good enough, but it seems that legally and politically it is accepted. For the most part "freedom of religion" has historically been about choosing between different abrahamic religions and atheism didn't really enter into it.
– Thomas
yesterday
@Tommy You may not accept it as good enough, but it seems that legally and politically it is accepted. For the most part "freedom of religion" has historically been about choosing between different abrahamic religions and atheism didn't really enter into it.
– Thomas
yesterday
18
18
Nitpicking, until 1956 (H. J. Resolution 396) the unofficial motto of the USA was "E pluribus unum" (Out of many, one). Why then? The answer is the cold war. It was seen as important to mark the difference between the US and the "godless communists".
– liftarn
yesterday
Nitpicking, until 1956 (H. J. Resolution 396) the unofficial motto of the USA was "E pluribus unum" (Out of many, one). Why then? The answer is the cold war. It was seen as important to mark the difference between the US and the "godless communists".
– liftarn
yesterday
6
6
@Thomas Even if that were true, there are religions in which referring to "God" makes no sense. Buddhism and Taoism aren't built around any God. Hinduism has many gods, none of them supreme.
– David Thornley
yesterday
@Thomas Even if that were true, there are religions in which referring to "God" makes no sense. Buddhism and Taoism aren't built around any God. Hinduism has many gods, none of them supreme.
– David Thornley
yesterday
|
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11 Answers
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No, it isn't a contradiction under US law. This has been tested in the Federal Courts, see for example O'Hair v. Blumenthal, and Aronow v. United States. The basic reasoning is summarized in this paragraph from the Anonow case:
It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency "In God We Trust" has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of a patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise.
People can certainly disagree based on opinion, but in context of politics and law, the mention of God isn't establishment of a state religion in the U.S.
58
Or, in short, "separation of church and state" does not equal "separation of religion and state". Religion is an idea. The church is an institution. They are related, but not the same. As a comparison, the state might promote the general idea of healthier eating, but if it would only promote a specific brand of healthy food then there might be a problem.
– Martin Tournoij
2 days ago
66
Yes, it IS a violation, but since the majority of Americans at least pay lip service to the Judeo-Christian religion, the Court was afraid to rule against mottos &c.
– jamesqf
yesterday
26
@jamesqf It's perhaps a violation of the principle of "separation of church and state", but that broad princple isn't what's in the Constitution. What's in the Constitution is the Establishment Clause, so that's what the court has to rule on.
– owjburnham
yesterday
25
This answer takes the ludicrous stance that because the Supreme Court said something, that makes it true. On the contrary, it merely makes it law.
– Xerxes
yesterday
12
-1: The assertion there is a single god by the state means that it has removed the multi-god religions.
– UKMonkey
yesterday
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This is a rather principialist question, and politics is a much more pragmatic field.
Philosophically, yes, a State should not acknowledge a god, there are religions without gods, agnosticism and atheism. As the State should not endorses any group, the god question should be absent from the State sphere.
Pragmatically, four in five Americans are from a abraamic religion that share a root concept of god, they fell represented and will defend the use of this symbology, even hurting the neutrality of the State. No politician would campaign against it, as there is no practical gain and a huge practical loss for them. Unless non christians/jews/mulisms, that are prejudiced by this "state monotheism", campaign actively against it, nothing would change.
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I would question your use of the adverb "Philisophically". Philosophers are unlikely to agree with you or with each other. Some might argue that a State that does not acknowledge a higher power or authority of some kind, whether that authority is a deity or something more abstract, is likely to descend fairly quickly into dictatorship and despotism.
– Michael Kay
yesterday
13
Probably the meaning was lost in translation. In Portuguese we frequently use philisophically as meaning "in a abstract discussion", "if we debate pure values", and not relating to any Philosophy actual thesis.
– Cochise
yesterday
The discussion about whether or not atheism is a religion has been moved to chat: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/86397/…
– Philipp♦
yesterday
1
@JSLavertu 80% is almost all, yes.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
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@JS Okay yep that checks out
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
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Disclaimer: I'm not that versed in history, so the following might have factual mistakes.
To understand the source of the american separation of church and state, you'll have to take a dive into history.
Between the 16th and 18th century, Europe was in a state of religious turmoil. The ruler decided which religion his subjects would have to follow (Cuius regio, eius religio (thanks @molnarm)), so if you were born under a catholic ruler and your village was then conquered by a protestant, you'd have to convert or be persecuted, banished or worse. Just paying lip service to a religion could also have dire consequences. If you then got re-conquered, you'd have to convert again. Due to pretty much constant wars, such a situation wasn't too uncommon.
America became a safe haven for people where they could live without anyone forcing their religion on them, which is why many victims of religious persecution and bloody wars chose to migrate west. The thought of "We don't want anyone to tell us which religion we must have" became ingrained into minds of the american population, but it was still assumed that everyone was a christian. When the USA achieved independence, the founders decided to formalize it so that a situation like in Europe would never happen on American soil.
The american separation of church and state is not about separating religion from politics, it's about separating the citizens from the religion of the ruler. The USA was still founded as a pretty much christian nation, but the founders wanted to guarantee that no citizen would be forced into a specific denomination on the whim of a ruler.
In the general case, yes, acknowledging a god as a state means that you discriminate against polytheist churches and atheist belief systems. You connect the state to all monotheistic churches. However, many European and American countries were formed or are based on countries formed during a time when it was assumed that everyone was some sort of christian and there wasn't enough political pressure for stricter separation and so the connection between many American and European states and Christianity in general still exists.
As a side note, the oath that a president has to swear doesn't have to include the bible. The president can choose what he swears on. It's just that most are Christians and decide to swear on the bible.
You are probably thinking of Cuius regio, eius religio.
– molnarm
yesterday
8
An interesting and informative answer, but the introduction of "In God We Trust" as a de facto motto came quite a long time after the formation of the USA. I get the impression that the emphasis of God in the public sphere was a product of the 1950s, rather than being related to the founders of the USA being Christian.
– Guy G
yesterday
3
@GuyG That's really not accurate at all. There certainly was a push towards more emphasis on being a "Christian nation" in the 1950s, but an emphasis on God in the public sphere and explicit mention of God in government definitely dates back to the founders (and even beyond them to the individual colonies and the British Crown.) The Constitution itself alludes to it ("secure the blessings of liberty") and the Declaration of Independence mentions it explicitly ("all men are... endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights." [capitalization in original.])
– reirab
22 hours ago
3
Also, literally all 50 state Constitutions mention God ("God," "Creator,", "Supreme Ruler of the Universe," etc.) explicitly.
– reirab
22 hours ago
1
I deleted another comment discussion about the definition of atheism which wasn't really relevant for the answer. If you would like to debate this topic, please use the provided chatroom derived from the same discussion below the answer: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/86397/…
– Philipp♦
13 hours ago
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"Separation of church and state" is not actually required by the US Constitution.
Wikipedia says that the phrase "separation of church and state" was first used by Thomas Jefferson in this letter in 1802, when he was President:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between
Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his
worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only,
& not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the
whole American people which declared that their legislature should
"make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting
the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between
Church & State.
Jefferson's use of the phrase indicates that it is the effect of the First Amendment restrictions on the government, but it is not the literal language. Justice Hugo Black wrote that the phrase expresses the intent of the literal language of the amendment.
This matters a great deal. A court case concerning the First Amendment should look at whether a particular issue involves an establishment of religion, or a prohibition of the free exercise of religion. But it is actually not relevant whether a particular issue involves, or violates, separation of church and state - because there is no such requirement in the Constitution!
Usually the distinction is minor, but it can be important. One example, that OP mentioned, is the use of "In God We Trust" on US bills and coins. It's pretty obvious that this is not compatible with the idea of separation of church and state. But that doesn't actually matter. It does not establish religion, and therefore it is permissible according to the Supreme Court.
There is considerable legal debate about this point, though, as described in the previously linked paper. The divide along liberal/conservative lines is basically around whether the First Amendment requires the state to be secular, or simply requires that it not give advantage or disadvantage.
Criticism of the modern Court’s separationist approach has existed since the 1940s, but gained momentum as a result of the resurgence of conservatism during the 1980s and the appointment of constitutional conservatives to the Supreme Court. Today, it is not uncommon for religious, legal, and cultural conservatives to criticize the concept of church-state separation. Critics charge that a separationist perspective imposes a regime of secularism, one that is not neutral toward religious matters but that privatizes and marginalizes religion. Yale law professor Stephen L. Carter argued that the separationism promoted “a culture of disbelief,” while Catholic theologian Richard John Neuhaus claimed that it created a religiously “naked public square.
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I'd argue that if the phrase was instead "In Allah We Trust" many people would indeed argue that it was endorsing or 'establishing' a particular religion even though the two words refer to the same deity.
– CramerTV
yesterday
2
@CramerTV Endorsing, yes. Establishing, no. The former is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. If the founders had intended to ban such things, they did a really poor job of it, as they themselves frequently mentioned God, including in the U.S. Declaration of Independence and allusion in the Constitution itself. And God is mentioned explicitly in all 50 state Constitutions.
– reirab
22 hours ago
1
Jefferson has said that the effect of the First Amendment is to put that wall of separation in place. He's saying that's exactly what the Amendment does, and requires, so saying that, because the world "wall" doesn't show up, that it doesn't do or require that is directly refuted by the people who wrote the thing. You don't see the words "separation of powers," but that's exactly what the Constitution does and requires. If I state that a prohibition on murder doesn't apply because it doesn't say I can't "shoot in the face," I'd get laughed at all the way to prison. -1
– PoloHoleSet
14 hours ago
@reirab - Endorsing is establishing, because it gives preference of one over others. The word "God" only shows up as "God of Nature" which is not a Christian concept, but a general catch-all, and the Declaration is not, in any way, one of our laws, it's a bit F-U to King George. The Constitution is our forming and founding document, and it makes no reference to God, and that is very intentional, as the Founders themselves reiterated, over and over. The only official proclamation on the topic by the Founders was the Treaty of Tripoli, which is very unambiguous.
– PoloHoleSet
14 hours ago
1
@PoloHoleSet The First Amendment doesn't say that the government can't give one religion preference over another. It just says that the (federal) government can't establish a state religion or prohibit the free exercise of religion. It's also worth noting that these limitations applied only to the federal government until the 14th Amendment incorporated the limitations of the Bill of Rights onto the states. Whether the government should give such preference is another question, but the language of the First Amendment contains no prohibition on this.
– reirab
11 hours ago
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I will try to explain as I was taught, so please bear with me.
Separation of church and state is just that: The state should hold no powers over any church.
Keep in mind that, while not a new concept back then, it was an unusual one. Many "states" like Spain, England, France, and so on were actually going through quite a bit of religious turmoil.
It was illegal, and sometimes even a capital crime to believe differently than the government. Monarchs in those days could not even take the throne without the "permission" of the pope. In fact, monarchs are "imbued by God with the power to rule". They are literally better then the rest of us because God said so. At least that's how the logic went back then. (Some of that was starting to change, but it was still recent).
The separation of church and state was to prevent that.
The actual line is:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
Which loosely means that congress can not pass a law "messin' with churches." It does not, in any way, provide for a secular country. Its purpose was exactly the opposite. The founding fathers wanted US citizens to practice whatever religion they wanted to, with no restrictions.
As for acknowledging God, there is no prohibition against it. It is in fact encouraged.
By the time the US was formed, there were plenty of rulers that weren't Catholic. The Treaty of Westphalia said that rulers could decide the state religion. Russia never was Catholic. Plenty of rulers didn't care about the Pope's permission. Also, "whatever religion they wanted to" does not necessarily come with a God. Using "God" like that appears to establish Western monotheist religions, as opposed to Taoists and Buddhists.
– David Thornley
yesterday
What you write is true, coteyr, but... it is about the Establishment Clause, while the question is not about that - it is about separation of state and church. Which in the US exists only to a limited extent.
– ANeves
yesterday
"They are literally better then the rest of us because God said so." I think you're conflating a grant of authority with inherent worth or goodness. This is antithetical to the Biblical text, although I couldn't be sure there weren't religious elements pushing the idea. The change likely coincided with the Reformation, which was largely rooted in challenging the unbiblical teachings of the Roman church. ...My point just being that this was never actually consistent with what Christianity originally taught.
– jpmc26
18 hours ago
3
"Separation of church and state is just that: The state should hold no powers over any church." Not just that... that is a two-way street... that no church should hold power over the state and that no state should hold any power over the church.
– MichaelK
16 hours ago
Maybe it "loosely" means that, but it specifically means what MichaelK has outlined. You were not taught correctly about this. I'd recommend more reading on the topic.
– PoloHoleSet
13 hours ago
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Before addressing this, a couple of points in your premise are flawed -
"...so help me God" is not part of the official swearing in. Someone can say that if they want, but it is not a required part of the official ceremony.
Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:—“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
US Consitution - Article II, Section 1 - 8
The same goes with "God bless America" - that's a personal statement.
Now, on to your statement -
"in God We Trust" - of course it is a very specific religious statement, and intended to be a specifically Christian one. Yes, federal courts have ruled that it's some sort of generic, non-religious statement, but that's simply because SCOTUS decided they did not want to make what would be a spectacularly unpopular ruling to bar it, and basically started at their desired ruling and worked backwards from there. It was never part of the official lexicon of the US government at the time of the founding of the nation, and has only appeared and been added in response to upswings in religious sentiment.
During the Red Scare hysteria of post-WWII, early Cold War era, everyone was eager to demonstrate how non-communist they were, and the thing many fear-mongering conservatives loved to point to was the official atheist stance of the communist governments. That was added to show how non-commie and God-fearing we were, and by God-fearing they did not mean any kind of non-Protestant god. That's when it was officially, by joint Congressional proclamation, added to all currency.
“Nothing can be more certain than that our country was founded in a spiritual atmosphere and with a firm trust in God,” Bennett proclaimed on the House Floor. “While the sentiment of trust in God is universal and timeless, these particular four words ‘In God We Trust’ are indigenous to our country.” Furthermore, Bennett invoked the cold war struggle in arguing for the measure. “In these days when imperialistic and materialistic communism seeks to attack and destroy freedom, we should continually look for ways to strengthen the foundations of our freedom,” he said. Adding “In God We Trust” to currency, Bennett believed, would “serve as a constant reminder” that the nation’s political and economic fortunes were tied to its spiritual faith.
US House of Representatives History Art and Archives Historical Highlights: "In God We Trust"
Charles E Bennett, from Florida, was the member of the House of Representatives that introduced the joint resolution to enshrine "In God We Trust" as the national motto of the USA.
“In God We Trust” was first added to U.S. coins during the beginning of the Civil War, when religious sentiment was on an upswing and concerned Americans wanted the world to know what their country stood for. Many wrote to Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase on the matter, and he agreed with their arguments. Congress passed his act requesting the addition of “In God We Trust,” adapted from a lesser-known verse of Francis Scott Key’s “Star-Spangled Banner,” and the first two-cent coin with the phrase was minted in 1864.
By the turn of the century, however, the war’s memory had faded; President Teddy Roosevelt considered the mingling of God and Mammon to be vulgar, and he ordered the phrase removed from newly designed gold coins in 1907. A public outcry forced Congress to backtrack. By the mid-1950s, the concern with piety in Washington had apparently deepened; in 1955 Congress ordered the same phrase to appear on all paper currency.
....But as TIME wrote in that ’91 story, the banality of the phrases may not be worth the fight as a symbol of separating church from state. “Today even ardent separationists seem to agree with retired Supreme Court Justice William Brennan, who wrote in 1983 that slogans such as ‘In God We Trust’ have ‘lost any true religious significance.'”
Time Magazine: How 'In God We Trust' Got on the Currency in the First Place
For what it's worth, honestly, when was the last time you used coined or printed currency? When you pay by credit card or ATM (or bitcoin, check, etc) you use dollars, cents, and $... not "InGodWeTrustples" or "GodBlessAmericetas".
– elliot svensson
yesterday
3
@elliotsvensson - Just purchased a soda from my work vending machine about the time you made that comment. Coins for that. Generally, I use currency when buying pitchers of lager for my volleyball team every Thursday.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
Based on your comment on my answer, and after reading this one, I wonder if you and I are answering subtly different questions: why is it allowed vs. why isn't it banned. Maybe I'm splitting too fine a hair or off base with that.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
@JaredSmith - I'm answering neither of those, actually. I'm answering the "isn't this a contradiction of the idea of separation," to which I say "Yes, it certainly is." The rest of my answer is to flesh out some details that I think support my claim that is it specifically religious, as opposed to a general motto like "Eat Cheese or Die" (the unofficial motto of the state of Wisconsin).
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet wow that's epic. Now I'm hungry. As for the rest, I find your argument reasonable but unconvincing. We're still talking about a bunch of theists who did the writing. I find the "we can't sort this out so we're going to officially punt" narrative more likely than the "even though we all believe in God let's act like we don't" narrative. Or am I miss-reading you?
– Jared Smith
yesterday
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Note that the examples you cite do not specify which God is being referred to. If the government made reference to Jesus or the ten commandments, that would be different.
That vagueness seems to be accepted as good enough both politically and legally. It's too vague to be classed as establishing a religion.
Atheists and some non-Abrahamic religions are unfortunately left out by this. That's a political consequence of those groups being a tiny minority in the US currently and even smaller historically. (However, that is slowly changing and the situation may look different in 50 years.)
And many people in those groups simply ignore such vague references to God. Many people say "Oh my God" in a purely secular manner and interpret these official references similarly. So even amongst that small group, there is not much political will to change this.
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The linked table is interesting in many ways. Not least that there are apparently significant numbers of people who identify as followers of Christian religions that don't believe in god! Mostly I want to note that it is not just atheists who are being implicitly snubbed by the frequent references to god in American culture but also Buddhists and to some extent Hindus.
– Eric Nolan
yesterday
2
Except if you were to suggest that the trusted God was Allah or a Jewish god, either to current proponents or to the people who passed the resolution back in the 1950s, you'd be set straight very, very quickly.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
3
@PoloHoleSet - historically speaking - that is the same God; As Christians, Jews, and Muslims all find their historical roots in the same thing - the God of Abraham. They do diverge in particulars from that point on. Any reasonably intelligent and honest theologian from any of those religions would (and does) say the same. Again - there are divergences later in terms of understanding / belief of said God's character and intentions, but for practical purposes - it's the same
– NKCampbell
yesterday
The fastest-growing religious classification in the US is "None", so I'm not convinced nonbelievers are such a tiny minority.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
@NKCampbell FWIW, a Muslim guy I know claims that his God isn't the Christian one. Lots of Christians would say God isn't Allah. Logically, this makes no sense, because there ain't room in the Universe for two such deities. For practical political purposes, though, they aren't necessarily the same God.
– David Thornley
yesterday
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It is a (arguably slight) violation of separation of state and religion, as it implies the existence of a god and also (arguably) of a single god. However, that doesn't specifically imply support for a single religion, so it would only discriminate against atheists and potentially polytheists.
Note that it doesn't force or endorse a single religion and thus, doesn't, by itself, restrict an individual's choice of religion. It sure might offend though.
However, it is not a violation of separation of state and church, as it does not identify any particular church, imply support or preference for any church or support any particular church with means of the state.
Now this argument is general in nature, it is a different question whether the imprint violates any US law that might enshrine some form of separation of state and religion/church. There are many countries that are in principle secular states, aim to be, have laws in that direction and/or are generally considered as such, but do have some lawful entanglements with particular religions/churches, typically the (historical) majority denominations.
I've seen/heard it a few times, but the "it only discriminates against a few groups" argument is still so very terrible. I can't imagine anyone trying to argue that with race, for example.
– Geobits
13 hours ago
@Geobits: the main point is that it doesn't actually discriminate on its own and is relatively broad, but not all encompassing. Thus it transgresses the line of no religious interference/preference by the state, but less than endorsing or even enforcing a single specific religion would. I'll see if I find the time to rewrite that though, as indeed, the "discriminate" part is misleading.
– Darkwing
12 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
The founding fathers were largely theists and largely Christian, but from various different sects of Christianity. A substantial minority like Ben Franklin were deists.
Since they couldn't all agree which type of Christianity or even whether Christianity was preferable to a more generic deism, they put the separation of church and state provisos in to prevent one sect from taking over and banning all the others by government fiat.
There was not likely any serious intent that the idea of God would be abandoned, as evidenced by the official language you mention in your question.
Further more two of the largest groups to settle America (and have the first successful settlement) were the Puritans and the Quakers, both of which came here fleeing religious persecution. The idea of religious tolerance was probably a little more appealing in early America than most places.
4
The notion that this was implemented just because "they couldn't all agree which type of Christianity" is just flat-out wrong.
– Martin Tournoij
2 days ago
1
This ignores the fact that many mentions of God, such as the addition of "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, are much later (1954 in that specific case).
– Stuart F
yesterday
2
@StuartF "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men a created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..." emphasis mine, capitalization his.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
2
The Declaration has no legal standing or authority as it relates to the United States. The Constitution is our Founding document, and what statements and stances the Founders wanted to be associated with the United States were very carefully considered when they drafted that document. References to any god were not omitted due to oversight or forgetfulness. OP is asking about a specifically Constitutional question, as well. Besides, as I pointed out, the "Creator" in the Declaration is, in no way, a specifically Christian reference.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
Hypothetically, it would not have to be, but we're talking about reality here. They only claim that when they have to try and justify and defend the statements of supremacy against the very clear prohibitions on those kinds of statements, in court. At all other times, the statement is very clear that it is their Christian, Protestant God that we all must trust.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
|
show 17 more comments
up vote
0
down vote
"Isn't acknowledging the existence of God, as a state, a contradiction of the separation of Church and State?"
Your question contains the answer.
God and Religion are not one and the same - they are two entirely different things. Many religions are about God. On the other hand, God isn't about a religion, or 'church'.
There's a separation of church and state.
Nowhere is it written that there be a separation of God and state.
QED.
New contributor
2
Quite right: God is not a religion. Religion is about human practices -- how we relate to God. The 1st Amendment says that the government can't require you to attend (for example) Protestant church services or Catholic mass (nor can it forbid you from either) or to pray (nor can it forbid that). For the Constitution to require lawmakers to act as if they were in a hypothetical situation where God didn't exist would be absurd. Lawmakers and voters are free to adopt whatever assumptions or axioms seem right to them.
– Joe
yesterday
2
@Joe - endorsement of a specific God, at all, violates the Establishment Clause, not just trying to force someone to pray at my church. Requiring lawmakers to run government in a completely secular manner is no way makes them deny the existence of their beliefs or gods. That's a flawed argument.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
@elliotsvensson - It might, but since there is a prohibition upon preventing individuals from exercising the practice of their chosen religion freely, it would fall afoul of that.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
@Joe, Politicians are free to believe whatever they want but one of the major reasons this country was founded was because people didn't want 'the state' forcing its beliefs of a god - any god - on the people. So whether or not there exists one or more gods is irrelevant. Do note that 'the fact' of the people believing in gods and 'the fact' of there being gods are similarly irrelevant for creating good laws.
– CramerTV
yesterday
1
@Joe There are no valid proofs of the existence of a God, although that debate's more for philosophy.stackexchange.com. The government can work just fine without considering a god, as long as that god doesn't meddle, and there's very little evidence of any god meddling. Governments mostly act as if General Relativity wasn't true (the GPS program is an exception), and that has very strong evidence for it.
– David Thornley
yesterday
|
show 10 more comments
up vote
-1
down vote
Without addressing your question per se, let's examine a parallel issue:
Does separation of church and state require the US government to promote atheism?
I think the answer is very clearly "No, that is not required by separation of church and state." The two extremes of building religion and destroying religion are addressed in turn by the first two clauses in the First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
A law with respect to the establishment of religion, such as the Church of England or the Church of Denmark, would be an unconstitutional law. Likewise, a law prohibiting the free exercise of religion, such as the laws which regulate the order in which akharas enter the water during Kumbh Mela, would be unconstitutional.
I'm not sure that providing an answer that specifically does not address the question is a great idea, unless you are looking to bolster some kind of street cred through accumulation of down-votes.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
Funny, I've never imagined this sort of street cred. I'll think about it.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet, mostly I'm avoiding the trouble of asking my own question and hoping people are cool with that.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
That would be the rebellious, non-conformist flavor of street cred, I'd think. In any case, I'm not down-voting, unless that is what you decide you want. Then I'm happy to "support" your cause.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
@PoloHoleSet, downvoting usually results in censure around here, so I don't think it's ever a good objective to try to gain downvotes.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
add a comment |
11 Answers
11
active
oldest
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11 Answers
11
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
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active
oldest
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up vote
48
down vote
No, it isn't a contradiction under US law. This has been tested in the Federal Courts, see for example O'Hair v. Blumenthal, and Aronow v. United States. The basic reasoning is summarized in this paragraph from the Anonow case:
It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency "In God We Trust" has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of a patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise.
People can certainly disagree based on opinion, but in context of politics and law, the mention of God isn't establishment of a state religion in the U.S.
58
Or, in short, "separation of church and state" does not equal "separation of religion and state". Religion is an idea. The church is an institution. They are related, but not the same. As a comparison, the state might promote the general idea of healthier eating, but if it would only promote a specific brand of healthy food then there might be a problem.
– Martin Tournoij
2 days ago
66
Yes, it IS a violation, but since the majority of Americans at least pay lip service to the Judeo-Christian religion, the Court was afraid to rule against mottos &c.
– jamesqf
yesterday
26
@jamesqf It's perhaps a violation of the principle of "separation of church and state", but that broad princple isn't what's in the Constitution. What's in the Constitution is the Establishment Clause, so that's what the court has to rule on.
– owjburnham
yesterday
25
This answer takes the ludicrous stance that because the Supreme Court said something, that makes it true. On the contrary, it merely makes it law.
– Xerxes
yesterday
12
-1: The assertion there is a single god by the state means that it has removed the multi-god religions.
– UKMonkey
yesterday
|
show 14 more comments
up vote
48
down vote
No, it isn't a contradiction under US law. This has been tested in the Federal Courts, see for example O'Hair v. Blumenthal, and Aronow v. United States. The basic reasoning is summarized in this paragraph from the Anonow case:
It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency "In God We Trust" has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of a patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise.
People can certainly disagree based on opinion, but in context of politics and law, the mention of God isn't establishment of a state religion in the U.S.
58
Or, in short, "separation of church and state" does not equal "separation of religion and state". Religion is an idea. The church is an institution. They are related, but not the same. As a comparison, the state might promote the general idea of healthier eating, but if it would only promote a specific brand of healthy food then there might be a problem.
– Martin Tournoij
2 days ago
66
Yes, it IS a violation, but since the majority of Americans at least pay lip service to the Judeo-Christian religion, the Court was afraid to rule against mottos &c.
– jamesqf
yesterday
26
@jamesqf It's perhaps a violation of the principle of "separation of church and state", but that broad princple isn't what's in the Constitution. What's in the Constitution is the Establishment Clause, so that's what the court has to rule on.
– owjburnham
yesterday
25
This answer takes the ludicrous stance that because the Supreme Court said something, that makes it true. On the contrary, it merely makes it law.
– Xerxes
yesterday
12
-1: The assertion there is a single god by the state means that it has removed the multi-god religions.
– UKMonkey
yesterday
|
show 14 more comments
up vote
48
down vote
up vote
48
down vote
No, it isn't a contradiction under US law. This has been tested in the Federal Courts, see for example O'Hair v. Blumenthal, and Aronow v. United States. The basic reasoning is summarized in this paragraph from the Anonow case:
It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency "In God We Trust" has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of a patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise.
People can certainly disagree based on opinion, but in context of politics and law, the mention of God isn't establishment of a state religion in the U.S.
No, it isn't a contradiction under US law. This has been tested in the Federal Courts, see for example O'Hair v. Blumenthal, and Aronow v. United States. The basic reasoning is summarized in this paragraph from the Anonow case:
It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency "In God We Trust" has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of a patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise.
People can certainly disagree based on opinion, but in context of politics and law, the mention of God isn't establishment of a state religion in the U.S.
edited yesterday
answered 2 days ago
Burt_Harris
2,0321327
2,0321327
58
Or, in short, "separation of church and state" does not equal "separation of religion and state". Religion is an idea. The church is an institution. They are related, but not the same. As a comparison, the state might promote the general idea of healthier eating, but if it would only promote a specific brand of healthy food then there might be a problem.
– Martin Tournoij
2 days ago
66
Yes, it IS a violation, but since the majority of Americans at least pay lip service to the Judeo-Christian religion, the Court was afraid to rule against mottos &c.
– jamesqf
yesterday
26
@jamesqf It's perhaps a violation of the principle of "separation of church and state", but that broad princple isn't what's in the Constitution. What's in the Constitution is the Establishment Clause, so that's what the court has to rule on.
– owjburnham
yesterday
25
This answer takes the ludicrous stance that because the Supreme Court said something, that makes it true. On the contrary, it merely makes it law.
– Xerxes
yesterday
12
-1: The assertion there is a single god by the state means that it has removed the multi-god religions.
– UKMonkey
yesterday
|
show 14 more comments
58
Or, in short, "separation of church and state" does not equal "separation of religion and state". Religion is an idea. The church is an institution. They are related, but not the same. As a comparison, the state might promote the general idea of healthier eating, but if it would only promote a specific brand of healthy food then there might be a problem.
– Martin Tournoij
2 days ago
66
Yes, it IS a violation, but since the majority of Americans at least pay lip service to the Judeo-Christian religion, the Court was afraid to rule against mottos &c.
– jamesqf
yesterday
26
@jamesqf It's perhaps a violation of the principle of "separation of church and state", but that broad princple isn't what's in the Constitution. What's in the Constitution is the Establishment Clause, so that's what the court has to rule on.
– owjburnham
yesterday
25
This answer takes the ludicrous stance that because the Supreme Court said something, that makes it true. On the contrary, it merely makes it law.
– Xerxes
yesterday
12
-1: The assertion there is a single god by the state means that it has removed the multi-god religions.
– UKMonkey
yesterday
58
58
Or, in short, "separation of church and state" does not equal "separation of religion and state". Religion is an idea. The church is an institution. They are related, but not the same. As a comparison, the state might promote the general idea of healthier eating, but if it would only promote a specific brand of healthy food then there might be a problem.
– Martin Tournoij
2 days ago
Or, in short, "separation of church and state" does not equal "separation of religion and state". Religion is an idea. The church is an institution. They are related, but not the same. As a comparison, the state might promote the general idea of healthier eating, but if it would only promote a specific brand of healthy food then there might be a problem.
– Martin Tournoij
2 days ago
66
66
Yes, it IS a violation, but since the majority of Americans at least pay lip service to the Judeo-Christian religion, the Court was afraid to rule against mottos &c.
– jamesqf
yesterday
Yes, it IS a violation, but since the majority of Americans at least pay lip service to the Judeo-Christian religion, the Court was afraid to rule against mottos &c.
– jamesqf
yesterday
26
26
@jamesqf It's perhaps a violation of the principle of "separation of church and state", but that broad princple isn't what's in the Constitution. What's in the Constitution is the Establishment Clause, so that's what the court has to rule on.
– owjburnham
yesterday
@jamesqf It's perhaps a violation of the principle of "separation of church and state", but that broad princple isn't what's in the Constitution. What's in the Constitution is the Establishment Clause, so that's what the court has to rule on.
– owjburnham
yesterday
25
25
This answer takes the ludicrous stance that because the Supreme Court said something, that makes it true. On the contrary, it merely makes it law.
– Xerxes
yesterday
This answer takes the ludicrous stance that because the Supreme Court said something, that makes it true. On the contrary, it merely makes it law.
– Xerxes
yesterday
12
12
-1: The assertion there is a single god by the state means that it has removed the multi-god religions.
– UKMonkey
yesterday
-1: The assertion there is a single god by the state means that it has removed the multi-god religions.
– UKMonkey
yesterday
|
show 14 more comments
up vote
22
down vote
This is a rather principialist question, and politics is a much more pragmatic field.
Philosophically, yes, a State should not acknowledge a god, there are religions without gods, agnosticism and atheism. As the State should not endorses any group, the god question should be absent from the State sphere.
Pragmatically, four in five Americans are from a abraamic religion that share a root concept of god, they fell represented and will defend the use of this symbology, even hurting the neutrality of the State. No politician would campaign against it, as there is no practical gain and a huge practical loss for them. Unless non christians/jews/mulisms, that are prejudiced by this "state monotheism", campaign actively against it, nothing would change.
New contributor
4
I would question your use of the adverb "Philisophically". Philosophers are unlikely to agree with you or with each other. Some might argue that a State that does not acknowledge a higher power or authority of some kind, whether that authority is a deity or something more abstract, is likely to descend fairly quickly into dictatorship and despotism.
– Michael Kay
yesterday
13
Probably the meaning was lost in translation. In Portuguese we frequently use philisophically as meaning "in a abstract discussion", "if we debate pure values", and not relating to any Philosophy actual thesis.
– Cochise
yesterday
The discussion about whether or not atheism is a religion has been moved to chat: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/86397/…
– Philipp♦
yesterday
1
@JSLavertu 80% is almost all, yes.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
1
@JS Okay yep that checks out
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
22
down vote
This is a rather principialist question, and politics is a much more pragmatic field.
Philosophically, yes, a State should not acknowledge a god, there are religions without gods, agnosticism and atheism. As the State should not endorses any group, the god question should be absent from the State sphere.
Pragmatically, four in five Americans are from a abraamic religion that share a root concept of god, they fell represented and will defend the use of this symbology, even hurting the neutrality of the State. No politician would campaign against it, as there is no practical gain and a huge practical loss for them. Unless non christians/jews/mulisms, that are prejudiced by this "state monotheism", campaign actively against it, nothing would change.
New contributor
4
I would question your use of the adverb "Philisophically". Philosophers are unlikely to agree with you or with each other. Some might argue that a State that does not acknowledge a higher power or authority of some kind, whether that authority is a deity or something more abstract, is likely to descend fairly quickly into dictatorship and despotism.
– Michael Kay
yesterday
13
Probably the meaning was lost in translation. In Portuguese we frequently use philisophically as meaning "in a abstract discussion", "if we debate pure values", and not relating to any Philosophy actual thesis.
– Cochise
yesterday
The discussion about whether or not atheism is a religion has been moved to chat: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/86397/…
– Philipp♦
yesterday
1
@JSLavertu 80% is almost all, yes.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
1
@JS Okay yep that checks out
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
22
down vote
up vote
22
down vote
This is a rather principialist question, and politics is a much more pragmatic field.
Philosophically, yes, a State should not acknowledge a god, there are religions without gods, agnosticism and atheism. As the State should not endorses any group, the god question should be absent from the State sphere.
Pragmatically, four in five Americans are from a abraamic religion that share a root concept of god, they fell represented and will defend the use of this symbology, even hurting the neutrality of the State. No politician would campaign against it, as there is no practical gain and a huge practical loss for them. Unless non christians/jews/mulisms, that are prejudiced by this "state monotheism", campaign actively against it, nothing would change.
New contributor
This is a rather principialist question, and politics is a much more pragmatic field.
Philosophically, yes, a State should not acknowledge a god, there are religions without gods, agnosticism and atheism. As the State should not endorses any group, the god question should be absent from the State sphere.
Pragmatically, four in five Americans are from a abraamic religion that share a root concept of god, they fell represented and will defend the use of this symbology, even hurting the neutrality of the State. No politician would campaign against it, as there is no practical gain and a huge practical loss for them. Unless non christians/jews/mulisms, that are prejudiced by this "state monotheism", campaign actively against it, nothing would change.
New contributor
edited 2 hours ago
New contributor
answered yesterday
Cochise
32915
32915
New contributor
New contributor
4
I would question your use of the adverb "Philisophically". Philosophers are unlikely to agree with you or with each other. Some might argue that a State that does not acknowledge a higher power or authority of some kind, whether that authority is a deity or something more abstract, is likely to descend fairly quickly into dictatorship and despotism.
– Michael Kay
yesterday
13
Probably the meaning was lost in translation. In Portuguese we frequently use philisophically as meaning "in a abstract discussion", "if we debate pure values", and not relating to any Philosophy actual thesis.
– Cochise
yesterday
The discussion about whether or not atheism is a religion has been moved to chat: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/86397/…
– Philipp♦
yesterday
1
@JSLavertu 80% is almost all, yes.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
1
@JS Okay yep that checks out
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
4
I would question your use of the adverb "Philisophically". Philosophers are unlikely to agree with you or with each other. Some might argue that a State that does not acknowledge a higher power or authority of some kind, whether that authority is a deity or something more abstract, is likely to descend fairly quickly into dictatorship and despotism.
– Michael Kay
yesterday
13
Probably the meaning was lost in translation. In Portuguese we frequently use philisophically as meaning "in a abstract discussion", "if we debate pure values", and not relating to any Philosophy actual thesis.
– Cochise
yesterday
The discussion about whether or not atheism is a religion has been moved to chat: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/86397/…
– Philipp♦
yesterday
1
@JSLavertu 80% is almost all, yes.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
1
@JS Okay yep that checks out
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
4
4
I would question your use of the adverb "Philisophically". Philosophers are unlikely to agree with you or with each other. Some might argue that a State that does not acknowledge a higher power or authority of some kind, whether that authority is a deity or something more abstract, is likely to descend fairly quickly into dictatorship and despotism.
– Michael Kay
yesterday
I would question your use of the adverb "Philisophically". Philosophers are unlikely to agree with you or with each other. Some might argue that a State that does not acknowledge a higher power or authority of some kind, whether that authority is a deity or something more abstract, is likely to descend fairly quickly into dictatorship and despotism.
– Michael Kay
yesterday
13
13
Probably the meaning was lost in translation. In Portuguese we frequently use philisophically as meaning "in a abstract discussion", "if we debate pure values", and not relating to any Philosophy actual thesis.
– Cochise
yesterday
Probably the meaning was lost in translation. In Portuguese we frequently use philisophically as meaning "in a abstract discussion", "if we debate pure values", and not relating to any Philosophy actual thesis.
– Cochise
yesterday
The discussion about whether or not atheism is a religion has been moved to chat: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/86397/…
– Philipp♦
yesterday
The discussion about whether or not atheism is a religion has been moved to chat: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/86397/…
– Philipp♦
yesterday
1
1
@JSLavertu 80% is almost all, yes.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
@JSLavertu 80% is almost all, yes.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
1
1
@JS Okay yep that checks out
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
@JS Okay yep that checks out
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
19
down vote
Disclaimer: I'm not that versed in history, so the following might have factual mistakes.
To understand the source of the american separation of church and state, you'll have to take a dive into history.
Between the 16th and 18th century, Europe was in a state of religious turmoil. The ruler decided which religion his subjects would have to follow (Cuius regio, eius religio (thanks @molnarm)), so if you were born under a catholic ruler and your village was then conquered by a protestant, you'd have to convert or be persecuted, banished or worse. Just paying lip service to a religion could also have dire consequences. If you then got re-conquered, you'd have to convert again. Due to pretty much constant wars, such a situation wasn't too uncommon.
America became a safe haven for people where they could live without anyone forcing their religion on them, which is why many victims of religious persecution and bloody wars chose to migrate west. The thought of "We don't want anyone to tell us which religion we must have" became ingrained into minds of the american population, but it was still assumed that everyone was a christian. When the USA achieved independence, the founders decided to formalize it so that a situation like in Europe would never happen on American soil.
The american separation of church and state is not about separating religion from politics, it's about separating the citizens from the religion of the ruler. The USA was still founded as a pretty much christian nation, but the founders wanted to guarantee that no citizen would be forced into a specific denomination on the whim of a ruler.
In the general case, yes, acknowledging a god as a state means that you discriminate against polytheist churches and atheist belief systems. You connect the state to all monotheistic churches. However, many European and American countries were formed or are based on countries formed during a time when it was assumed that everyone was some sort of christian and there wasn't enough political pressure for stricter separation and so the connection between many American and European states and Christianity in general still exists.
As a side note, the oath that a president has to swear doesn't have to include the bible. The president can choose what he swears on. It's just that most are Christians and decide to swear on the bible.
You are probably thinking of Cuius regio, eius religio.
– molnarm
yesterday
8
An interesting and informative answer, but the introduction of "In God We Trust" as a de facto motto came quite a long time after the formation of the USA. I get the impression that the emphasis of God in the public sphere was a product of the 1950s, rather than being related to the founders of the USA being Christian.
– Guy G
yesterday
3
@GuyG That's really not accurate at all. There certainly was a push towards more emphasis on being a "Christian nation" in the 1950s, but an emphasis on God in the public sphere and explicit mention of God in government definitely dates back to the founders (and even beyond them to the individual colonies and the British Crown.) The Constitution itself alludes to it ("secure the blessings of liberty") and the Declaration of Independence mentions it explicitly ("all men are... endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights." [capitalization in original.])
– reirab
22 hours ago
3
Also, literally all 50 state Constitutions mention God ("God," "Creator,", "Supreme Ruler of the Universe," etc.) explicitly.
– reirab
22 hours ago
1
I deleted another comment discussion about the definition of atheism which wasn't really relevant for the answer. If you would like to debate this topic, please use the provided chatroom derived from the same discussion below the answer: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/86397/…
– Philipp♦
13 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
19
down vote
Disclaimer: I'm not that versed in history, so the following might have factual mistakes.
To understand the source of the american separation of church and state, you'll have to take a dive into history.
Between the 16th and 18th century, Europe was in a state of religious turmoil. The ruler decided which religion his subjects would have to follow (Cuius regio, eius religio (thanks @molnarm)), so if you were born under a catholic ruler and your village was then conquered by a protestant, you'd have to convert or be persecuted, banished or worse. Just paying lip service to a religion could also have dire consequences. If you then got re-conquered, you'd have to convert again. Due to pretty much constant wars, such a situation wasn't too uncommon.
America became a safe haven for people where they could live without anyone forcing their religion on them, which is why many victims of religious persecution and bloody wars chose to migrate west. The thought of "We don't want anyone to tell us which religion we must have" became ingrained into minds of the american population, but it was still assumed that everyone was a christian. When the USA achieved independence, the founders decided to formalize it so that a situation like in Europe would never happen on American soil.
The american separation of church and state is not about separating religion from politics, it's about separating the citizens from the religion of the ruler. The USA was still founded as a pretty much christian nation, but the founders wanted to guarantee that no citizen would be forced into a specific denomination on the whim of a ruler.
In the general case, yes, acknowledging a god as a state means that you discriminate against polytheist churches and atheist belief systems. You connect the state to all monotheistic churches. However, many European and American countries were formed or are based on countries formed during a time when it was assumed that everyone was some sort of christian and there wasn't enough political pressure for stricter separation and so the connection between many American and European states and Christianity in general still exists.
As a side note, the oath that a president has to swear doesn't have to include the bible. The president can choose what he swears on. It's just that most are Christians and decide to swear on the bible.
You are probably thinking of Cuius regio, eius religio.
– molnarm
yesterday
8
An interesting and informative answer, but the introduction of "In God We Trust" as a de facto motto came quite a long time after the formation of the USA. I get the impression that the emphasis of God in the public sphere was a product of the 1950s, rather than being related to the founders of the USA being Christian.
– Guy G
yesterday
3
@GuyG That's really not accurate at all. There certainly was a push towards more emphasis on being a "Christian nation" in the 1950s, but an emphasis on God in the public sphere and explicit mention of God in government definitely dates back to the founders (and even beyond them to the individual colonies and the British Crown.) The Constitution itself alludes to it ("secure the blessings of liberty") and the Declaration of Independence mentions it explicitly ("all men are... endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights." [capitalization in original.])
– reirab
22 hours ago
3
Also, literally all 50 state Constitutions mention God ("God," "Creator,", "Supreme Ruler of the Universe," etc.) explicitly.
– reirab
22 hours ago
1
I deleted another comment discussion about the definition of atheism which wasn't really relevant for the answer. If you would like to debate this topic, please use the provided chatroom derived from the same discussion below the answer: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/86397/…
– Philipp♦
13 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
19
down vote
up vote
19
down vote
Disclaimer: I'm not that versed in history, so the following might have factual mistakes.
To understand the source of the american separation of church and state, you'll have to take a dive into history.
Between the 16th and 18th century, Europe was in a state of religious turmoil. The ruler decided which religion his subjects would have to follow (Cuius regio, eius religio (thanks @molnarm)), so if you were born under a catholic ruler and your village was then conquered by a protestant, you'd have to convert or be persecuted, banished or worse. Just paying lip service to a religion could also have dire consequences. If you then got re-conquered, you'd have to convert again. Due to pretty much constant wars, such a situation wasn't too uncommon.
America became a safe haven for people where they could live without anyone forcing their religion on them, which is why many victims of religious persecution and bloody wars chose to migrate west. The thought of "We don't want anyone to tell us which religion we must have" became ingrained into minds of the american population, but it was still assumed that everyone was a christian. When the USA achieved independence, the founders decided to formalize it so that a situation like in Europe would never happen on American soil.
The american separation of church and state is not about separating religion from politics, it's about separating the citizens from the religion of the ruler. The USA was still founded as a pretty much christian nation, but the founders wanted to guarantee that no citizen would be forced into a specific denomination on the whim of a ruler.
In the general case, yes, acknowledging a god as a state means that you discriminate against polytheist churches and atheist belief systems. You connect the state to all monotheistic churches. However, many European and American countries were formed or are based on countries formed during a time when it was assumed that everyone was some sort of christian and there wasn't enough political pressure for stricter separation and so the connection between many American and European states and Christianity in general still exists.
As a side note, the oath that a president has to swear doesn't have to include the bible. The president can choose what he swears on. It's just that most are Christians and decide to swear on the bible.
Disclaimer: I'm not that versed in history, so the following might have factual mistakes.
To understand the source of the american separation of church and state, you'll have to take a dive into history.
Between the 16th and 18th century, Europe was in a state of religious turmoil. The ruler decided which religion his subjects would have to follow (Cuius regio, eius religio (thanks @molnarm)), so if you were born under a catholic ruler and your village was then conquered by a protestant, you'd have to convert or be persecuted, banished or worse. Just paying lip service to a religion could also have dire consequences. If you then got re-conquered, you'd have to convert again. Due to pretty much constant wars, such a situation wasn't too uncommon.
America became a safe haven for people where they could live without anyone forcing their religion on them, which is why many victims of religious persecution and bloody wars chose to migrate west. The thought of "We don't want anyone to tell us which religion we must have" became ingrained into minds of the american population, but it was still assumed that everyone was a christian. When the USA achieved independence, the founders decided to formalize it so that a situation like in Europe would never happen on American soil.
The american separation of church and state is not about separating religion from politics, it's about separating the citizens from the religion of the ruler. The USA was still founded as a pretty much christian nation, but the founders wanted to guarantee that no citizen would be forced into a specific denomination on the whim of a ruler.
In the general case, yes, acknowledging a god as a state means that you discriminate against polytheist churches and atheist belief systems. You connect the state to all monotheistic churches. However, many European and American countries were formed or are based on countries formed during a time when it was assumed that everyone was some sort of christian and there wasn't enough political pressure for stricter separation and so the connection between many American and European states and Christianity in general still exists.
As a side note, the oath that a president has to swear doesn't have to include the bible. The president can choose what he swears on. It's just that most are Christians and decide to swear on the bible.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Morfildur
4874
4874
You are probably thinking of Cuius regio, eius religio.
– molnarm
yesterday
8
An interesting and informative answer, but the introduction of "In God We Trust" as a de facto motto came quite a long time after the formation of the USA. I get the impression that the emphasis of God in the public sphere was a product of the 1950s, rather than being related to the founders of the USA being Christian.
– Guy G
yesterday
3
@GuyG That's really not accurate at all. There certainly was a push towards more emphasis on being a "Christian nation" in the 1950s, but an emphasis on God in the public sphere and explicit mention of God in government definitely dates back to the founders (and even beyond them to the individual colonies and the British Crown.) The Constitution itself alludes to it ("secure the blessings of liberty") and the Declaration of Independence mentions it explicitly ("all men are... endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights." [capitalization in original.])
– reirab
22 hours ago
3
Also, literally all 50 state Constitutions mention God ("God," "Creator,", "Supreme Ruler of the Universe," etc.) explicitly.
– reirab
22 hours ago
1
I deleted another comment discussion about the definition of atheism which wasn't really relevant for the answer. If you would like to debate this topic, please use the provided chatroom derived from the same discussion below the answer: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/86397/…
– Philipp♦
13 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
You are probably thinking of Cuius regio, eius religio.
– molnarm
yesterday
8
An interesting and informative answer, but the introduction of "In God We Trust" as a de facto motto came quite a long time after the formation of the USA. I get the impression that the emphasis of God in the public sphere was a product of the 1950s, rather than being related to the founders of the USA being Christian.
– Guy G
yesterday
3
@GuyG That's really not accurate at all. There certainly was a push towards more emphasis on being a "Christian nation" in the 1950s, but an emphasis on God in the public sphere and explicit mention of God in government definitely dates back to the founders (and even beyond them to the individual colonies and the British Crown.) The Constitution itself alludes to it ("secure the blessings of liberty") and the Declaration of Independence mentions it explicitly ("all men are... endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights." [capitalization in original.])
– reirab
22 hours ago
3
Also, literally all 50 state Constitutions mention God ("God," "Creator,", "Supreme Ruler of the Universe," etc.) explicitly.
– reirab
22 hours ago
1
I deleted another comment discussion about the definition of atheism which wasn't really relevant for the answer. If you would like to debate this topic, please use the provided chatroom derived from the same discussion below the answer: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/86397/…
– Philipp♦
13 hours ago
You are probably thinking of Cuius regio, eius religio.
– molnarm
yesterday
You are probably thinking of Cuius regio, eius religio.
– molnarm
yesterday
8
8
An interesting and informative answer, but the introduction of "In God We Trust" as a de facto motto came quite a long time after the formation of the USA. I get the impression that the emphasis of God in the public sphere was a product of the 1950s, rather than being related to the founders of the USA being Christian.
– Guy G
yesterday
An interesting and informative answer, but the introduction of "In God We Trust" as a de facto motto came quite a long time after the formation of the USA. I get the impression that the emphasis of God in the public sphere was a product of the 1950s, rather than being related to the founders of the USA being Christian.
– Guy G
yesterday
3
3
@GuyG That's really not accurate at all. There certainly was a push towards more emphasis on being a "Christian nation" in the 1950s, but an emphasis on God in the public sphere and explicit mention of God in government definitely dates back to the founders (and even beyond them to the individual colonies and the British Crown.) The Constitution itself alludes to it ("secure the blessings of liberty") and the Declaration of Independence mentions it explicitly ("all men are... endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights." [capitalization in original.])
– reirab
22 hours ago
@GuyG That's really not accurate at all. There certainly was a push towards more emphasis on being a "Christian nation" in the 1950s, but an emphasis on God in the public sphere and explicit mention of God in government definitely dates back to the founders (and even beyond them to the individual colonies and the British Crown.) The Constitution itself alludes to it ("secure the blessings of liberty") and the Declaration of Independence mentions it explicitly ("all men are... endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights." [capitalization in original.])
– reirab
22 hours ago
3
3
Also, literally all 50 state Constitutions mention God ("God," "Creator,", "Supreme Ruler of the Universe," etc.) explicitly.
– reirab
22 hours ago
Also, literally all 50 state Constitutions mention God ("God," "Creator,", "Supreme Ruler of the Universe," etc.) explicitly.
– reirab
22 hours ago
1
1
I deleted another comment discussion about the definition of atheism which wasn't really relevant for the answer. If you would like to debate this topic, please use the provided chatroom derived from the same discussion below the answer: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/86397/…
– Philipp♦
13 hours ago
I deleted another comment discussion about the definition of atheism which wasn't really relevant for the answer. If you would like to debate this topic, please use the provided chatroom derived from the same discussion below the answer: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/86397/…
– Philipp♦
13 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
14
down vote
"Separation of church and state" is not actually required by the US Constitution.
Wikipedia says that the phrase "separation of church and state" was first used by Thomas Jefferson in this letter in 1802, when he was President:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between
Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his
worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only,
& not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the
whole American people which declared that their legislature should
"make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting
the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between
Church & State.
Jefferson's use of the phrase indicates that it is the effect of the First Amendment restrictions on the government, but it is not the literal language. Justice Hugo Black wrote that the phrase expresses the intent of the literal language of the amendment.
This matters a great deal. A court case concerning the First Amendment should look at whether a particular issue involves an establishment of religion, or a prohibition of the free exercise of religion. But it is actually not relevant whether a particular issue involves, or violates, separation of church and state - because there is no such requirement in the Constitution!
Usually the distinction is minor, but it can be important. One example, that OP mentioned, is the use of "In God We Trust" on US bills and coins. It's pretty obvious that this is not compatible with the idea of separation of church and state. But that doesn't actually matter. It does not establish religion, and therefore it is permissible according to the Supreme Court.
There is considerable legal debate about this point, though, as described in the previously linked paper. The divide along liberal/conservative lines is basically around whether the First Amendment requires the state to be secular, or simply requires that it not give advantage or disadvantage.
Criticism of the modern Court’s separationist approach has existed since the 1940s, but gained momentum as a result of the resurgence of conservatism during the 1980s and the appointment of constitutional conservatives to the Supreme Court. Today, it is not uncommon for religious, legal, and cultural conservatives to criticize the concept of church-state separation. Critics charge that a separationist perspective imposes a regime of secularism, one that is not neutral toward religious matters but that privatizes and marginalizes religion. Yale law professor Stephen L. Carter argued that the separationism promoted “a culture of disbelief,” while Catholic theologian Richard John Neuhaus claimed that it created a religiously “naked public square.
3
I'd argue that if the phrase was instead "In Allah We Trust" many people would indeed argue that it was endorsing or 'establishing' a particular religion even though the two words refer to the same deity.
– CramerTV
yesterday
2
@CramerTV Endorsing, yes. Establishing, no. The former is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. If the founders had intended to ban such things, they did a really poor job of it, as they themselves frequently mentioned God, including in the U.S. Declaration of Independence and allusion in the Constitution itself. And God is mentioned explicitly in all 50 state Constitutions.
– reirab
22 hours ago
1
Jefferson has said that the effect of the First Amendment is to put that wall of separation in place. He's saying that's exactly what the Amendment does, and requires, so saying that, because the world "wall" doesn't show up, that it doesn't do or require that is directly refuted by the people who wrote the thing. You don't see the words "separation of powers," but that's exactly what the Constitution does and requires. If I state that a prohibition on murder doesn't apply because it doesn't say I can't "shoot in the face," I'd get laughed at all the way to prison. -1
– PoloHoleSet
14 hours ago
@reirab - Endorsing is establishing, because it gives preference of one over others. The word "God" only shows up as "God of Nature" which is not a Christian concept, but a general catch-all, and the Declaration is not, in any way, one of our laws, it's a bit F-U to King George. The Constitution is our forming and founding document, and it makes no reference to God, and that is very intentional, as the Founders themselves reiterated, over and over. The only official proclamation on the topic by the Founders was the Treaty of Tripoli, which is very unambiguous.
– PoloHoleSet
14 hours ago
1
@PoloHoleSet The First Amendment doesn't say that the government can't give one religion preference over another. It just says that the (federal) government can't establish a state religion or prohibit the free exercise of religion. It's also worth noting that these limitations applied only to the federal government until the 14th Amendment incorporated the limitations of the Bill of Rights onto the states. Whether the government should give such preference is another question, but the language of the First Amendment contains no prohibition on this.
– reirab
11 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
14
down vote
"Separation of church and state" is not actually required by the US Constitution.
Wikipedia says that the phrase "separation of church and state" was first used by Thomas Jefferson in this letter in 1802, when he was President:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between
Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his
worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only,
& not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the
whole American people which declared that their legislature should
"make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting
the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between
Church & State.
Jefferson's use of the phrase indicates that it is the effect of the First Amendment restrictions on the government, but it is not the literal language. Justice Hugo Black wrote that the phrase expresses the intent of the literal language of the amendment.
This matters a great deal. A court case concerning the First Amendment should look at whether a particular issue involves an establishment of religion, or a prohibition of the free exercise of religion. But it is actually not relevant whether a particular issue involves, or violates, separation of church and state - because there is no such requirement in the Constitution!
Usually the distinction is minor, but it can be important. One example, that OP mentioned, is the use of "In God We Trust" on US bills and coins. It's pretty obvious that this is not compatible with the idea of separation of church and state. But that doesn't actually matter. It does not establish religion, and therefore it is permissible according to the Supreme Court.
There is considerable legal debate about this point, though, as described in the previously linked paper. The divide along liberal/conservative lines is basically around whether the First Amendment requires the state to be secular, or simply requires that it not give advantage or disadvantage.
Criticism of the modern Court’s separationist approach has existed since the 1940s, but gained momentum as a result of the resurgence of conservatism during the 1980s and the appointment of constitutional conservatives to the Supreme Court. Today, it is not uncommon for religious, legal, and cultural conservatives to criticize the concept of church-state separation. Critics charge that a separationist perspective imposes a regime of secularism, one that is not neutral toward religious matters but that privatizes and marginalizes religion. Yale law professor Stephen L. Carter argued that the separationism promoted “a culture of disbelief,” while Catholic theologian Richard John Neuhaus claimed that it created a religiously “naked public square.
3
I'd argue that if the phrase was instead "In Allah We Trust" many people would indeed argue that it was endorsing or 'establishing' a particular religion even though the two words refer to the same deity.
– CramerTV
yesterday
2
@CramerTV Endorsing, yes. Establishing, no. The former is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. If the founders had intended to ban such things, they did a really poor job of it, as they themselves frequently mentioned God, including in the U.S. Declaration of Independence and allusion in the Constitution itself. And God is mentioned explicitly in all 50 state Constitutions.
– reirab
22 hours ago
1
Jefferson has said that the effect of the First Amendment is to put that wall of separation in place. He's saying that's exactly what the Amendment does, and requires, so saying that, because the world "wall" doesn't show up, that it doesn't do or require that is directly refuted by the people who wrote the thing. You don't see the words "separation of powers," but that's exactly what the Constitution does and requires. If I state that a prohibition on murder doesn't apply because it doesn't say I can't "shoot in the face," I'd get laughed at all the way to prison. -1
– PoloHoleSet
14 hours ago
@reirab - Endorsing is establishing, because it gives preference of one over others. The word "God" only shows up as "God of Nature" which is not a Christian concept, but a general catch-all, and the Declaration is not, in any way, one of our laws, it's a bit F-U to King George. The Constitution is our forming and founding document, and it makes no reference to God, and that is very intentional, as the Founders themselves reiterated, over and over. The only official proclamation on the topic by the Founders was the Treaty of Tripoli, which is very unambiguous.
– PoloHoleSet
14 hours ago
1
@PoloHoleSet The First Amendment doesn't say that the government can't give one religion preference over another. It just says that the (federal) government can't establish a state religion or prohibit the free exercise of religion. It's also worth noting that these limitations applied only to the federal government until the 14th Amendment incorporated the limitations of the Bill of Rights onto the states. Whether the government should give such preference is another question, but the language of the First Amendment contains no prohibition on this.
– reirab
11 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
14
down vote
up vote
14
down vote
"Separation of church and state" is not actually required by the US Constitution.
Wikipedia says that the phrase "separation of church and state" was first used by Thomas Jefferson in this letter in 1802, when he was President:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between
Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his
worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only,
& not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the
whole American people which declared that their legislature should
"make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting
the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between
Church & State.
Jefferson's use of the phrase indicates that it is the effect of the First Amendment restrictions on the government, but it is not the literal language. Justice Hugo Black wrote that the phrase expresses the intent of the literal language of the amendment.
This matters a great deal. A court case concerning the First Amendment should look at whether a particular issue involves an establishment of religion, or a prohibition of the free exercise of religion. But it is actually not relevant whether a particular issue involves, or violates, separation of church and state - because there is no such requirement in the Constitution!
Usually the distinction is minor, but it can be important. One example, that OP mentioned, is the use of "In God We Trust" on US bills and coins. It's pretty obvious that this is not compatible with the idea of separation of church and state. But that doesn't actually matter. It does not establish religion, and therefore it is permissible according to the Supreme Court.
There is considerable legal debate about this point, though, as described in the previously linked paper. The divide along liberal/conservative lines is basically around whether the First Amendment requires the state to be secular, or simply requires that it not give advantage or disadvantage.
Criticism of the modern Court’s separationist approach has existed since the 1940s, but gained momentum as a result of the resurgence of conservatism during the 1980s and the appointment of constitutional conservatives to the Supreme Court. Today, it is not uncommon for religious, legal, and cultural conservatives to criticize the concept of church-state separation. Critics charge that a separationist perspective imposes a regime of secularism, one that is not neutral toward religious matters but that privatizes and marginalizes religion. Yale law professor Stephen L. Carter argued that the separationism promoted “a culture of disbelief,” while Catholic theologian Richard John Neuhaus claimed that it created a religiously “naked public square.
"Separation of church and state" is not actually required by the US Constitution.
Wikipedia says that the phrase "separation of church and state" was first used by Thomas Jefferson in this letter in 1802, when he was President:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between
Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his
worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only,
& not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the
whole American people which declared that their legislature should
"make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting
the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between
Church & State.
Jefferson's use of the phrase indicates that it is the effect of the First Amendment restrictions on the government, but it is not the literal language. Justice Hugo Black wrote that the phrase expresses the intent of the literal language of the amendment.
This matters a great deal. A court case concerning the First Amendment should look at whether a particular issue involves an establishment of religion, or a prohibition of the free exercise of religion. But it is actually not relevant whether a particular issue involves, or violates, separation of church and state - because there is no such requirement in the Constitution!
Usually the distinction is minor, but it can be important. One example, that OP mentioned, is the use of "In God We Trust" on US bills and coins. It's pretty obvious that this is not compatible with the idea of separation of church and state. But that doesn't actually matter. It does not establish religion, and therefore it is permissible according to the Supreme Court.
There is considerable legal debate about this point, though, as described in the previously linked paper. The divide along liberal/conservative lines is basically around whether the First Amendment requires the state to be secular, or simply requires that it not give advantage or disadvantage.
Criticism of the modern Court’s separationist approach has existed since the 1940s, but gained momentum as a result of the resurgence of conservatism during the 1980s and the appointment of constitutional conservatives to the Supreme Court. Today, it is not uncommon for religious, legal, and cultural conservatives to criticize the concept of church-state separation. Critics charge that a separationist perspective imposes a regime of secularism, one that is not neutral toward religious matters but that privatizes and marginalizes religion. Yale law professor Stephen L. Carter argued that the separationism promoted “a culture of disbelief,” while Catholic theologian Richard John Neuhaus claimed that it created a religiously “naked public square.
answered yesterday
wberry
770310
770310
3
I'd argue that if the phrase was instead "In Allah We Trust" many people would indeed argue that it was endorsing or 'establishing' a particular religion even though the two words refer to the same deity.
– CramerTV
yesterday
2
@CramerTV Endorsing, yes. Establishing, no. The former is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. If the founders had intended to ban such things, they did a really poor job of it, as they themselves frequently mentioned God, including in the U.S. Declaration of Independence and allusion in the Constitution itself. And God is mentioned explicitly in all 50 state Constitutions.
– reirab
22 hours ago
1
Jefferson has said that the effect of the First Amendment is to put that wall of separation in place. He's saying that's exactly what the Amendment does, and requires, so saying that, because the world "wall" doesn't show up, that it doesn't do or require that is directly refuted by the people who wrote the thing. You don't see the words "separation of powers," but that's exactly what the Constitution does and requires. If I state that a prohibition on murder doesn't apply because it doesn't say I can't "shoot in the face," I'd get laughed at all the way to prison. -1
– PoloHoleSet
14 hours ago
@reirab - Endorsing is establishing, because it gives preference of one over others. The word "God" only shows up as "God of Nature" which is not a Christian concept, but a general catch-all, and the Declaration is not, in any way, one of our laws, it's a bit F-U to King George. The Constitution is our forming and founding document, and it makes no reference to God, and that is very intentional, as the Founders themselves reiterated, over and over. The only official proclamation on the topic by the Founders was the Treaty of Tripoli, which is very unambiguous.
– PoloHoleSet
14 hours ago
1
@PoloHoleSet The First Amendment doesn't say that the government can't give one religion preference over another. It just says that the (federal) government can't establish a state religion or prohibit the free exercise of religion. It's also worth noting that these limitations applied only to the federal government until the 14th Amendment incorporated the limitations of the Bill of Rights onto the states. Whether the government should give such preference is another question, but the language of the First Amendment contains no prohibition on this.
– reirab
11 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
3
I'd argue that if the phrase was instead "In Allah We Trust" many people would indeed argue that it was endorsing or 'establishing' a particular religion even though the two words refer to the same deity.
– CramerTV
yesterday
2
@CramerTV Endorsing, yes. Establishing, no. The former is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. If the founders had intended to ban such things, they did a really poor job of it, as they themselves frequently mentioned God, including in the U.S. Declaration of Independence and allusion in the Constitution itself. And God is mentioned explicitly in all 50 state Constitutions.
– reirab
22 hours ago
1
Jefferson has said that the effect of the First Amendment is to put that wall of separation in place. He's saying that's exactly what the Amendment does, and requires, so saying that, because the world "wall" doesn't show up, that it doesn't do or require that is directly refuted by the people who wrote the thing. You don't see the words "separation of powers," but that's exactly what the Constitution does and requires. If I state that a prohibition on murder doesn't apply because it doesn't say I can't "shoot in the face," I'd get laughed at all the way to prison. -1
– PoloHoleSet
14 hours ago
@reirab - Endorsing is establishing, because it gives preference of one over others. The word "God" only shows up as "God of Nature" which is not a Christian concept, but a general catch-all, and the Declaration is not, in any way, one of our laws, it's a bit F-U to King George. The Constitution is our forming and founding document, and it makes no reference to God, and that is very intentional, as the Founders themselves reiterated, over and over. The only official proclamation on the topic by the Founders was the Treaty of Tripoli, which is very unambiguous.
– PoloHoleSet
14 hours ago
1
@PoloHoleSet The First Amendment doesn't say that the government can't give one religion preference over another. It just says that the (federal) government can't establish a state religion or prohibit the free exercise of religion. It's also worth noting that these limitations applied only to the federal government until the 14th Amendment incorporated the limitations of the Bill of Rights onto the states. Whether the government should give such preference is another question, but the language of the First Amendment contains no prohibition on this.
– reirab
11 hours ago
3
3
I'd argue that if the phrase was instead "In Allah We Trust" many people would indeed argue that it was endorsing or 'establishing' a particular religion even though the two words refer to the same deity.
– CramerTV
yesterday
I'd argue that if the phrase was instead "In Allah We Trust" many people would indeed argue that it was endorsing or 'establishing' a particular religion even though the two words refer to the same deity.
– CramerTV
yesterday
2
2
@CramerTV Endorsing, yes. Establishing, no. The former is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. If the founders had intended to ban such things, they did a really poor job of it, as they themselves frequently mentioned God, including in the U.S. Declaration of Independence and allusion in the Constitution itself. And God is mentioned explicitly in all 50 state Constitutions.
– reirab
22 hours ago
@CramerTV Endorsing, yes. Establishing, no. The former is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. If the founders had intended to ban such things, they did a really poor job of it, as they themselves frequently mentioned God, including in the U.S. Declaration of Independence and allusion in the Constitution itself. And God is mentioned explicitly in all 50 state Constitutions.
– reirab
22 hours ago
1
1
Jefferson has said that the effect of the First Amendment is to put that wall of separation in place. He's saying that's exactly what the Amendment does, and requires, so saying that, because the world "wall" doesn't show up, that it doesn't do or require that is directly refuted by the people who wrote the thing. You don't see the words "separation of powers," but that's exactly what the Constitution does and requires. If I state that a prohibition on murder doesn't apply because it doesn't say I can't "shoot in the face," I'd get laughed at all the way to prison. -1
– PoloHoleSet
14 hours ago
Jefferson has said that the effect of the First Amendment is to put that wall of separation in place. He's saying that's exactly what the Amendment does, and requires, so saying that, because the world "wall" doesn't show up, that it doesn't do or require that is directly refuted by the people who wrote the thing. You don't see the words "separation of powers," but that's exactly what the Constitution does and requires. If I state that a prohibition on murder doesn't apply because it doesn't say I can't "shoot in the face," I'd get laughed at all the way to prison. -1
– PoloHoleSet
14 hours ago
@reirab - Endorsing is establishing, because it gives preference of one over others. The word "God" only shows up as "God of Nature" which is not a Christian concept, but a general catch-all, and the Declaration is not, in any way, one of our laws, it's a bit F-U to King George. The Constitution is our forming and founding document, and it makes no reference to God, and that is very intentional, as the Founders themselves reiterated, over and over. The only official proclamation on the topic by the Founders was the Treaty of Tripoli, which is very unambiguous.
– PoloHoleSet
14 hours ago
@reirab - Endorsing is establishing, because it gives preference of one over others. The word "God" only shows up as "God of Nature" which is not a Christian concept, but a general catch-all, and the Declaration is not, in any way, one of our laws, it's a bit F-U to King George. The Constitution is our forming and founding document, and it makes no reference to God, and that is very intentional, as the Founders themselves reiterated, over and over. The only official proclamation on the topic by the Founders was the Treaty of Tripoli, which is very unambiguous.
– PoloHoleSet
14 hours ago
1
1
@PoloHoleSet The First Amendment doesn't say that the government can't give one religion preference over another. It just says that the (federal) government can't establish a state religion or prohibit the free exercise of religion. It's also worth noting that these limitations applied only to the federal government until the 14th Amendment incorporated the limitations of the Bill of Rights onto the states. Whether the government should give such preference is another question, but the language of the First Amendment contains no prohibition on this.
– reirab
11 hours ago
@PoloHoleSet The First Amendment doesn't say that the government can't give one religion preference over another. It just says that the (federal) government can't establish a state religion or prohibit the free exercise of religion. It's also worth noting that these limitations applied only to the federal government until the 14th Amendment incorporated the limitations of the Bill of Rights onto the states. Whether the government should give such preference is another question, but the language of the First Amendment contains no prohibition on this.
– reirab
11 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
12
down vote
I will try to explain as I was taught, so please bear with me.
Separation of church and state is just that: The state should hold no powers over any church.
Keep in mind that, while not a new concept back then, it was an unusual one. Many "states" like Spain, England, France, and so on were actually going through quite a bit of religious turmoil.
It was illegal, and sometimes even a capital crime to believe differently than the government. Monarchs in those days could not even take the throne without the "permission" of the pope. In fact, monarchs are "imbued by God with the power to rule". They are literally better then the rest of us because God said so. At least that's how the logic went back then. (Some of that was starting to change, but it was still recent).
The separation of church and state was to prevent that.
The actual line is:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
Which loosely means that congress can not pass a law "messin' with churches." It does not, in any way, provide for a secular country. Its purpose was exactly the opposite. The founding fathers wanted US citizens to practice whatever religion they wanted to, with no restrictions.
As for acknowledging God, there is no prohibition against it. It is in fact encouraged.
By the time the US was formed, there were plenty of rulers that weren't Catholic. The Treaty of Westphalia said that rulers could decide the state religion. Russia never was Catholic. Plenty of rulers didn't care about the Pope's permission. Also, "whatever religion they wanted to" does not necessarily come with a God. Using "God" like that appears to establish Western monotheist religions, as opposed to Taoists and Buddhists.
– David Thornley
yesterday
What you write is true, coteyr, but... it is about the Establishment Clause, while the question is not about that - it is about separation of state and church. Which in the US exists only to a limited extent.
– ANeves
yesterday
"They are literally better then the rest of us because God said so." I think you're conflating a grant of authority with inherent worth or goodness. This is antithetical to the Biblical text, although I couldn't be sure there weren't religious elements pushing the idea. The change likely coincided with the Reformation, which was largely rooted in challenging the unbiblical teachings of the Roman church. ...My point just being that this was never actually consistent with what Christianity originally taught.
– jpmc26
18 hours ago
3
"Separation of church and state is just that: The state should hold no powers over any church." Not just that... that is a two-way street... that no church should hold power over the state and that no state should hold any power over the church.
– MichaelK
16 hours ago
Maybe it "loosely" means that, but it specifically means what MichaelK has outlined. You were not taught correctly about this. I'd recommend more reading on the topic.
– PoloHoleSet
13 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
12
down vote
I will try to explain as I was taught, so please bear with me.
Separation of church and state is just that: The state should hold no powers over any church.
Keep in mind that, while not a new concept back then, it was an unusual one. Many "states" like Spain, England, France, and so on were actually going through quite a bit of religious turmoil.
It was illegal, and sometimes even a capital crime to believe differently than the government. Monarchs in those days could not even take the throne without the "permission" of the pope. In fact, monarchs are "imbued by God with the power to rule". They are literally better then the rest of us because God said so. At least that's how the logic went back then. (Some of that was starting to change, but it was still recent).
The separation of church and state was to prevent that.
The actual line is:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
Which loosely means that congress can not pass a law "messin' with churches." It does not, in any way, provide for a secular country. Its purpose was exactly the opposite. The founding fathers wanted US citizens to practice whatever religion they wanted to, with no restrictions.
As for acknowledging God, there is no prohibition against it. It is in fact encouraged.
By the time the US was formed, there were plenty of rulers that weren't Catholic. The Treaty of Westphalia said that rulers could decide the state religion. Russia never was Catholic. Plenty of rulers didn't care about the Pope's permission. Also, "whatever religion they wanted to" does not necessarily come with a God. Using "God" like that appears to establish Western monotheist religions, as opposed to Taoists and Buddhists.
– David Thornley
yesterday
What you write is true, coteyr, but... it is about the Establishment Clause, while the question is not about that - it is about separation of state and church. Which in the US exists only to a limited extent.
– ANeves
yesterday
"They are literally better then the rest of us because God said so." I think you're conflating a grant of authority with inherent worth or goodness. This is antithetical to the Biblical text, although I couldn't be sure there weren't religious elements pushing the idea. The change likely coincided with the Reformation, which was largely rooted in challenging the unbiblical teachings of the Roman church. ...My point just being that this was never actually consistent with what Christianity originally taught.
– jpmc26
18 hours ago
3
"Separation of church and state is just that: The state should hold no powers over any church." Not just that... that is a two-way street... that no church should hold power over the state and that no state should hold any power over the church.
– MichaelK
16 hours ago
Maybe it "loosely" means that, but it specifically means what MichaelK has outlined. You were not taught correctly about this. I'd recommend more reading on the topic.
– PoloHoleSet
13 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
12
down vote
up vote
12
down vote
I will try to explain as I was taught, so please bear with me.
Separation of church and state is just that: The state should hold no powers over any church.
Keep in mind that, while not a new concept back then, it was an unusual one. Many "states" like Spain, England, France, and so on were actually going through quite a bit of religious turmoil.
It was illegal, and sometimes even a capital crime to believe differently than the government. Monarchs in those days could not even take the throne without the "permission" of the pope. In fact, monarchs are "imbued by God with the power to rule". They are literally better then the rest of us because God said so. At least that's how the logic went back then. (Some of that was starting to change, but it was still recent).
The separation of church and state was to prevent that.
The actual line is:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
Which loosely means that congress can not pass a law "messin' with churches." It does not, in any way, provide for a secular country. Its purpose was exactly the opposite. The founding fathers wanted US citizens to practice whatever religion they wanted to, with no restrictions.
As for acknowledging God, there is no prohibition against it. It is in fact encouraged.
I will try to explain as I was taught, so please bear with me.
Separation of church and state is just that: The state should hold no powers over any church.
Keep in mind that, while not a new concept back then, it was an unusual one. Many "states" like Spain, England, France, and so on were actually going through quite a bit of religious turmoil.
It was illegal, and sometimes even a capital crime to believe differently than the government. Monarchs in those days could not even take the throne without the "permission" of the pope. In fact, monarchs are "imbued by God with the power to rule". They are literally better then the rest of us because God said so. At least that's how the logic went back then. (Some of that was starting to change, but it was still recent).
The separation of church and state was to prevent that.
The actual line is:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
Which loosely means that congress can not pass a law "messin' with churches." It does not, in any way, provide for a secular country. Its purpose was exactly the opposite. The founding fathers wanted US citizens to practice whatever religion they wanted to, with no restrictions.
As for acknowledging God, there is no prohibition against it. It is in fact encouraged.
edited yesterday
elliot svensson
1,9391516
1,9391516
answered yesterday
coteyr
1,029316
1,029316
By the time the US was formed, there were plenty of rulers that weren't Catholic. The Treaty of Westphalia said that rulers could decide the state religion. Russia never was Catholic. Plenty of rulers didn't care about the Pope's permission. Also, "whatever religion they wanted to" does not necessarily come with a God. Using "God" like that appears to establish Western monotheist religions, as opposed to Taoists and Buddhists.
– David Thornley
yesterday
What you write is true, coteyr, but... it is about the Establishment Clause, while the question is not about that - it is about separation of state and church. Which in the US exists only to a limited extent.
– ANeves
yesterday
"They are literally better then the rest of us because God said so." I think you're conflating a grant of authority with inherent worth or goodness. This is antithetical to the Biblical text, although I couldn't be sure there weren't religious elements pushing the idea. The change likely coincided with the Reformation, which was largely rooted in challenging the unbiblical teachings of the Roman church. ...My point just being that this was never actually consistent with what Christianity originally taught.
– jpmc26
18 hours ago
3
"Separation of church and state is just that: The state should hold no powers over any church." Not just that... that is a two-way street... that no church should hold power over the state and that no state should hold any power over the church.
– MichaelK
16 hours ago
Maybe it "loosely" means that, but it specifically means what MichaelK has outlined. You were not taught correctly about this. I'd recommend more reading on the topic.
– PoloHoleSet
13 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
By the time the US was formed, there were plenty of rulers that weren't Catholic. The Treaty of Westphalia said that rulers could decide the state religion. Russia never was Catholic. Plenty of rulers didn't care about the Pope's permission. Also, "whatever religion they wanted to" does not necessarily come with a God. Using "God" like that appears to establish Western monotheist religions, as opposed to Taoists and Buddhists.
– David Thornley
yesterday
What you write is true, coteyr, but... it is about the Establishment Clause, while the question is not about that - it is about separation of state and church. Which in the US exists only to a limited extent.
– ANeves
yesterday
"They are literally better then the rest of us because God said so." I think you're conflating a grant of authority with inherent worth or goodness. This is antithetical to the Biblical text, although I couldn't be sure there weren't religious elements pushing the idea. The change likely coincided with the Reformation, which was largely rooted in challenging the unbiblical teachings of the Roman church. ...My point just being that this was never actually consistent with what Christianity originally taught.
– jpmc26
18 hours ago
3
"Separation of church and state is just that: The state should hold no powers over any church." Not just that... that is a two-way street... that no church should hold power over the state and that no state should hold any power over the church.
– MichaelK
16 hours ago
Maybe it "loosely" means that, but it specifically means what MichaelK has outlined. You were not taught correctly about this. I'd recommend more reading on the topic.
– PoloHoleSet
13 hours ago
By the time the US was formed, there were plenty of rulers that weren't Catholic. The Treaty of Westphalia said that rulers could decide the state religion. Russia never was Catholic. Plenty of rulers didn't care about the Pope's permission. Also, "whatever religion they wanted to" does not necessarily come with a God. Using "God" like that appears to establish Western monotheist religions, as opposed to Taoists and Buddhists.
– David Thornley
yesterday
By the time the US was formed, there were plenty of rulers that weren't Catholic. The Treaty of Westphalia said that rulers could decide the state religion. Russia never was Catholic. Plenty of rulers didn't care about the Pope's permission. Also, "whatever religion they wanted to" does not necessarily come with a God. Using "God" like that appears to establish Western monotheist religions, as opposed to Taoists and Buddhists.
– David Thornley
yesterday
What you write is true, coteyr, but... it is about the Establishment Clause, while the question is not about that - it is about separation of state and church. Which in the US exists only to a limited extent.
– ANeves
yesterday
What you write is true, coteyr, but... it is about the Establishment Clause, while the question is not about that - it is about separation of state and church. Which in the US exists only to a limited extent.
– ANeves
yesterday
"They are literally better then the rest of us because God said so." I think you're conflating a grant of authority with inherent worth or goodness. This is antithetical to the Biblical text, although I couldn't be sure there weren't religious elements pushing the idea. The change likely coincided with the Reformation, which was largely rooted in challenging the unbiblical teachings of the Roman church. ...My point just being that this was never actually consistent with what Christianity originally taught.
– jpmc26
18 hours ago
"They are literally better then the rest of us because God said so." I think you're conflating a grant of authority with inherent worth or goodness. This is antithetical to the Biblical text, although I couldn't be sure there weren't religious elements pushing the idea. The change likely coincided with the Reformation, which was largely rooted in challenging the unbiblical teachings of the Roman church. ...My point just being that this was never actually consistent with what Christianity originally taught.
– jpmc26
18 hours ago
3
3
"Separation of church and state is just that: The state should hold no powers over any church." Not just that... that is a two-way street... that no church should hold power over the state and that no state should hold any power over the church.
– MichaelK
16 hours ago
"Separation of church and state is just that: The state should hold no powers over any church." Not just that... that is a two-way street... that no church should hold power over the state and that no state should hold any power over the church.
– MichaelK
16 hours ago
Maybe it "loosely" means that, but it specifically means what MichaelK has outlined. You were not taught correctly about this. I'd recommend more reading on the topic.
– PoloHoleSet
13 hours ago
Maybe it "loosely" means that, but it specifically means what MichaelK has outlined. You were not taught correctly about this. I'd recommend more reading on the topic.
– PoloHoleSet
13 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
7
down vote
Before addressing this, a couple of points in your premise are flawed -
"...so help me God" is not part of the official swearing in. Someone can say that if they want, but it is not a required part of the official ceremony.
Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:—“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
US Consitution - Article II, Section 1 - 8
The same goes with "God bless America" - that's a personal statement.
Now, on to your statement -
"in God We Trust" - of course it is a very specific religious statement, and intended to be a specifically Christian one. Yes, federal courts have ruled that it's some sort of generic, non-religious statement, but that's simply because SCOTUS decided they did not want to make what would be a spectacularly unpopular ruling to bar it, and basically started at their desired ruling and worked backwards from there. It was never part of the official lexicon of the US government at the time of the founding of the nation, and has only appeared and been added in response to upswings in religious sentiment.
During the Red Scare hysteria of post-WWII, early Cold War era, everyone was eager to demonstrate how non-communist they were, and the thing many fear-mongering conservatives loved to point to was the official atheist stance of the communist governments. That was added to show how non-commie and God-fearing we were, and by God-fearing they did not mean any kind of non-Protestant god. That's when it was officially, by joint Congressional proclamation, added to all currency.
“Nothing can be more certain than that our country was founded in a spiritual atmosphere and with a firm trust in God,” Bennett proclaimed on the House Floor. “While the sentiment of trust in God is universal and timeless, these particular four words ‘In God We Trust’ are indigenous to our country.” Furthermore, Bennett invoked the cold war struggle in arguing for the measure. “In these days when imperialistic and materialistic communism seeks to attack and destroy freedom, we should continually look for ways to strengthen the foundations of our freedom,” he said. Adding “In God We Trust” to currency, Bennett believed, would “serve as a constant reminder” that the nation’s political and economic fortunes were tied to its spiritual faith.
US House of Representatives History Art and Archives Historical Highlights: "In God We Trust"
Charles E Bennett, from Florida, was the member of the House of Representatives that introduced the joint resolution to enshrine "In God We Trust" as the national motto of the USA.
“In God We Trust” was first added to U.S. coins during the beginning of the Civil War, when religious sentiment was on an upswing and concerned Americans wanted the world to know what their country stood for. Many wrote to Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase on the matter, and he agreed with their arguments. Congress passed his act requesting the addition of “In God We Trust,” adapted from a lesser-known verse of Francis Scott Key’s “Star-Spangled Banner,” and the first two-cent coin with the phrase was minted in 1864.
By the turn of the century, however, the war’s memory had faded; President Teddy Roosevelt considered the mingling of God and Mammon to be vulgar, and he ordered the phrase removed from newly designed gold coins in 1907. A public outcry forced Congress to backtrack. By the mid-1950s, the concern with piety in Washington had apparently deepened; in 1955 Congress ordered the same phrase to appear on all paper currency.
....But as TIME wrote in that ’91 story, the banality of the phrases may not be worth the fight as a symbol of separating church from state. “Today even ardent separationists seem to agree with retired Supreme Court Justice William Brennan, who wrote in 1983 that slogans such as ‘In God We Trust’ have ‘lost any true religious significance.'”
Time Magazine: How 'In God We Trust' Got on the Currency in the First Place
For what it's worth, honestly, when was the last time you used coined or printed currency? When you pay by credit card or ATM (or bitcoin, check, etc) you use dollars, cents, and $... not "InGodWeTrustples" or "GodBlessAmericetas".
– elliot svensson
yesterday
3
@elliotsvensson - Just purchased a soda from my work vending machine about the time you made that comment. Coins for that. Generally, I use currency when buying pitchers of lager for my volleyball team every Thursday.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
Based on your comment on my answer, and after reading this one, I wonder if you and I are answering subtly different questions: why is it allowed vs. why isn't it banned. Maybe I'm splitting too fine a hair or off base with that.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
@JaredSmith - I'm answering neither of those, actually. I'm answering the "isn't this a contradiction of the idea of separation," to which I say "Yes, it certainly is." The rest of my answer is to flesh out some details that I think support my claim that is it specifically religious, as opposed to a general motto like "Eat Cheese or Die" (the unofficial motto of the state of Wisconsin).
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet wow that's epic. Now I'm hungry. As for the rest, I find your argument reasonable but unconvincing. We're still talking about a bunch of theists who did the writing. I find the "we can't sort this out so we're going to officially punt" narrative more likely than the "even though we all believe in God let's act like we don't" narrative. Or am I miss-reading you?
– Jared Smith
yesterday
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
7
down vote
Before addressing this, a couple of points in your premise are flawed -
"...so help me God" is not part of the official swearing in. Someone can say that if they want, but it is not a required part of the official ceremony.
Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:—“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
US Consitution - Article II, Section 1 - 8
The same goes with "God bless America" - that's a personal statement.
Now, on to your statement -
"in God We Trust" - of course it is a very specific religious statement, and intended to be a specifically Christian one. Yes, federal courts have ruled that it's some sort of generic, non-religious statement, but that's simply because SCOTUS decided they did not want to make what would be a spectacularly unpopular ruling to bar it, and basically started at their desired ruling and worked backwards from there. It was never part of the official lexicon of the US government at the time of the founding of the nation, and has only appeared and been added in response to upswings in religious sentiment.
During the Red Scare hysteria of post-WWII, early Cold War era, everyone was eager to demonstrate how non-communist they were, and the thing many fear-mongering conservatives loved to point to was the official atheist stance of the communist governments. That was added to show how non-commie and God-fearing we were, and by God-fearing they did not mean any kind of non-Protestant god. That's when it was officially, by joint Congressional proclamation, added to all currency.
“Nothing can be more certain than that our country was founded in a spiritual atmosphere and with a firm trust in God,” Bennett proclaimed on the House Floor. “While the sentiment of trust in God is universal and timeless, these particular four words ‘In God We Trust’ are indigenous to our country.” Furthermore, Bennett invoked the cold war struggle in arguing for the measure. “In these days when imperialistic and materialistic communism seeks to attack and destroy freedom, we should continually look for ways to strengthen the foundations of our freedom,” he said. Adding “In God We Trust” to currency, Bennett believed, would “serve as a constant reminder” that the nation’s political and economic fortunes were tied to its spiritual faith.
US House of Representatives History Art and Archives Historical Highlights: "In God We Trust"
Charles E Bennett, from Florida, was the member of the House of Representatives that introduced the joint resolution to enshrine "In God We Trust" as the national motto of the USA.
“In God We Trust” was first added to U.S. coins during the beginning of the Civil War, when religious sentiment was on an upswing and concerned Americans wanted the world to know what their country stood for. Many wrote to Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase on the matter, and he agreed with their arguments. Congress passed his act requesting the addition of “In God We Trust,” adapted from a lesser-known verse of Francis Scott Key’s “Star-Spangled Banner,” and the first two-cent coin with the phrase was minted in 1864.
By the turn of the century, however, the war’s memory had faded; President Teddy Roosevelt considered the mingling of God and Mammon to be vulgar, and he ordered the phrase removed from newly designed gold coins in 1907. A public outcry forced Congress to backtrack. By the mid-1950s, the concern with piety in Washington had apparently deepened; in 1955 Congress ordered the same phrase to appear on all paper currency.
....But as TIME wrote in that ’91 story, the banality of the phrases may not be worth the fight as a symbol of separating church from state. “Today even ardent separationists seem to agree with retired Supreme Court Justice William Brennan, who wrote in 1983 that slogans such as ‘In God We Trust’ have ‘lost any true religious significance.'”
Time Magazine: How 'In God We Trust' Got on the Currency in the First Place
For what it's worth, honestly, when was the last time you used coined or printed currency? When you pay by credit card or ATM (or bitcoin, check, etc) you use dollars, cents, and $... not "InGodWeTrustples" or "GodBlessAmericetas".
– elliot svensson
yesterday
3
@elliotsvensson - Just purchased a soda from my work vending machine about the time you made that comment. Coins for that. Generally, I use currency when buying pitchers of lager for my volleyball team every Thursday.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
Based on your comment on my answer, and after reading this one, I wonder if you and I are answering subtly different questions: why is it allowed vs. why isn't it banned. Maybe I'm splitting too fine a hair or off base with that.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
@JaredSmith - I'm answering neither of those, actually. I'm answering the "isn't this a contradiction of the idea of separation," to which I say "Yes, it certainly is." The rest of my answer is to flesh out some details that I think support my claim that is it specifically religious, as opposed to a general motto like "Eat Cheese or Die" (the unofficial motto of the state of Wisconsin).
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet wow that's epic. Now I'm hungry. As for the rest, I find your argument reasonable but unconvincing. We're still talking about a bunch of theists who did the writing. I find the "we can't sort this out so we're going to officially punt" narrative more likely than the "even though we all believe in God let's act like we don't" narrative. Or am I miss-reading you?
– Jared Smith
yesterday
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
7
down vote
up vote
7
down vote
Before addressing this, a couple of points in your premise are flawed -
"...so help me God" is not part of the official swearing in. Someone can say that if they want, but it is not a required part of the official ceremony.
Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:—“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
US Consitution - Article II, Section 1 - 8
The same goes with "God bless America" - that's a personal statement.
Now, on to your statement -
"in God We Trust" - of course it is a very specific religious statement, and intended to be a specifically Christian one. Yes, federal courts have ruled that it's some sort of generic, non-religious statement, but that's simply because SCOTUS decided they did not want to make what would be a spectacularly unpopular ruling to bar it, and basically started at their desired ruling and worked backwards from there. It was never part of the official lexicon of the US government at the time of the founding of the nation, and has only appeared and been added in response to upswings in religious sentiment.
During the Red Scare hysteria of post-WWII, early Cold War era, everyone was eager to demonstrate how non-communist they were, and the thing many fear-mongering conservatives loved to point to was the official atheist stance of the communist governments. That was added to show how non-commie and God-fearing we were, and by God-fearing they did not mean any kind of non-Protestant god. That's when it was officially, by joint Congressional proclamation, added to all currency.
“Nothing can be more certain than that our country was founded in a spiritual atmosphere and with a firm trust in God,” Bennett proclaimed on the House Floor. “While the sentiment of trust in God is universal and timeless, these particular four words ‘In God We Trust’ are indigenous to our country.” Furthermore, Bennett invoked the cold war struggle in arguing for the measure. “In these days when imperialistic and materialistic communism seeks to attack and destroy freedom, we should continually look for ways to strengthen the foundations of our freedom,” he said. Adding “In God We Trust” to currency, Bennett believed, would “serve as a constant reminder” that the nation’s political and economic fortunes were tied to its spiritual faith.
US House of Representatives History Art and Archives Historical Highlights: "In God We Trust"
Charles E Bennett, from Florida, was the member of the House of Representatives that introduced the joint resolution to enshrine "In God We Trust" as the national motto of the USA.
“In God We Trust” was first added to U.S. coins during the beginning of the Civil War, when religious sentiment was on an upswing and concerned Americans wanted the world to know what their country stood for. Many wrote to Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase on the matter, and he agreed with their arguments. Congress passed his act requesting the addition of “In God We Trust,” adapted from a lesser-known verse of Francis Scott Key’s “Star-Spangled Banner,” and the first two-cent coin with the phrase was minted in 1864.
By the turn of the century, however, the war’s memory had faded; President Teddy Roosevelt considered the mingling of God and Mammon to be vulgar, and he ordered the phrase removed from newly designed gold coins in 1907. A public outcry forced Congress to backtrack. By the mid-1950s, the concern with piety in Washington had apparently deepened; in 1955 Congress ordered the same phrase to appear on all paper currency.
....But as TIME wrote in that ’91 story, the banality of the phrases may not be worth the fight as a symbol of separating church from state. “Today even ardent separationists seem to agree with retired Supreme Court Justice William Brennan, who wrote in 1983 that slogans such as ‘In God We Trust’ have ‘lost any true religious significance.'”
Time Magazine: How 'In God We Trust' Got on the Currency in the First Place
Before addressing this, a couple of points in your premise are flawed -
"...so help me God" is not part of the official swearing in. Someone can say that if they want, but it is not a required part of the official ceremony.
Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:—“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
US Consitution - Article II, Section 1 - 8
The same goes with "God bless America" - that's a personal statement.
Now, on to your statement -
"in God We Trust" - of course it is a very specific religious statement, and intended to be a specifically Christian one. Yes, federal courts have ruled that it's some sort of generic, non-religious statement, but that's simply because SCOTUS decided they did not want to make what would be a spectacularly unpopular ruling to bar it, and basically started at their desired ruling and worked backwards from there. It was never part of the official lexicon of the US government at the time of the founding of the nation, and has only appeared and been added in response to upswings in religious sentiment.
During the Red Scare hysteria of post-WWII, early Cold War era, everyone was eager to demonstrate how non-communist they were, and the thing many fear-mongering conservatives loved to point to was the official atheist stance of the communist governments. That was added to show how non-commie and God-fearing we were, and by God-fearing they did not mean any kind of non-Protestant god. That's when it was officially, by joint Congressional proclamation, added to all currency.
“Nothing can be more certain than that our country was founded in a spiritual atmosphere and with a firm trust in God,” Bennett proclaimed on the House Floor. “While the sentiment of trust in God is universal and timeless, these particular four words ‘In God We Trust’ are indigenous to our country.” Furthermore, Bennett invoked the cold war struggle in arguing for the measure. “In these days when imperialistic and materialistic communism seeks to attack and destroy freedom, we should continually look for ways to strengthen the foundations of our freedom,” he said. Adding “In God We Trust” to currency, Bennett believed, would “serve as a constant reminder” that the nation’s political and economic fortunes were tied to its spiritual faith.
US House of Representatives History Art and Archives Historical Highlights: "In God We Trust"
Charles E Bennett, from Florida, was the member of the House of Representatives that introduced the joint resolution to enshrine "In God We Trust" as the national motto of the USA.
“In God We Trust” was first added to U.S. coins during the beginning of the Civil War, when religious sentiment was on an upswing and concerned Americans wanted the world to know what their country stood for. Many wrote to Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase on the matter, and he agreed with their arguments. Congress passed his act requesting the addition of “In God We Trust,” adapted from a lesser-known verse of Francis Scott Key’s “Star-Spangled Banner,” and the first two-cent coin with the phrase was minted in 1864.
By the turn of the century, however, the war’s memory had faded; President Teddy Roosevelt considered the mingling of God and Mammon to be vulgar, and he ordered the phrase removed from newly designed gold coins in 1907. A public outcry forced Congress to backtrack. By the mid-1950s, the concern with piety in Washington had apparently deepened; in 1955 Congress ordered the same phrase to appear on all paper currency.
....But as TIME wrote in that ’91 story, the banality of the phrases may not be worth the fight as a symbol of separating church from state. “Today even ardent separationists seem to agree with retired Supreme Court Justice William Brennan, who wrote in 1983 that slogans such as ‘In God We Trust’ have ‘lost any true religious significance.'”
Time Magazine: How 'In God We Trust' Got on the Currency in the First Place
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
PoloHoleSet
11.1k12652
11.1k12652
For what it's worth, honestly, when was the last time you used coined or printed currency? When you pay by credit card or ATM (or bitcoin, check, etc) you use dollars, cents, and $... not "InGodWeTrustples" or "GodBlessAmericetas".
– elliot svensson
yesterday
3
@elliotsvensson - Just purchased a soda from my work vending machine about the time you made that comment. Coins for that. Generally, I use currency when buying pitchers of lager for my volleyball team every Thursday.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
Based on your comment on my answer, and after reading this one, I wonder if you and I are answering subtly different questions: why is it allowed vs. why isn't it banned. Maybe I'm splitting too fine a hair or off base with that.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
@JaredSmith - I'm answering neither of those, actually. I'm answering the "isn't this a contradiction of the idea of separation," to which I say "Yes, it certainly is." The rest of my answer is to flesh out some details that I think support my claim that is it specifically religious, as opposed to a general motto like "Eat Cheese or Die" (the unofficial motto of the state of Wisconsin).
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet wow that's epic. Now I'm hungry. As for the rest, I find your argument reasonable but unconvincing. We're still talking about a bunch of theists who did the writing. I find the "we can't sort this out so we're going to officially punt" narrative more likely than the "even though we all believe in God let's act like we don't" narrative. Or am I miss-reading you?
– Jared Smith
yesterday
|
show 5 more comments
For what it's worth, honestly, when was the last time you used coined or printed currency? When you pay by credit card or ATM (or bitcoin, check, etc) you use dollars, cents, and $... not "InGodWeTrustples" or "GodBlessAmericetas".
– elliot svensson
yesterday
3
@elliotsvensson - Just purchased a soda from my work vending machine about the time you made that comment. Coins for that. Generally, I use currency when buying pitchers of lager for my volleyball team every Thursday.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
Based on your comment on my answer, and after reading this one, I wonder if you and I are answering subtly different questions: why is it allowed vs. why isn't it banned. Maybe I'm splitting too fine a hair or off base with that.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
@JaredSmith - I'm answering neither of those, actually. I'm answering the "isn't this a contradiction of the idea of separation," to which I say "Yes, it certainly is." The rest of my answer is to flesh out some details that I think support my claim that is it specifically religious, as opposed to a general motto like "Eat Cheese or Die" (the unofficial motto of the state of Wisconsin).
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet wow that's epic. Now I'm hungry. As for the rest, I find your argument reasonable but unconvincing. We're still talking about a bunch of theists who did the writing. I find the "we can't sort this out so we're going to officially punt" narrative more likely than the "even though we all believe in God let's act like we don't" narrative. Or am I miss-reading you?
– Jared Smith
yesterday
For what it's worth, honestly, when was the last time you used coined or printed currency? When you pay by credit card or ATM (or bitcoin, check, etc) you use dollars, cents, and $... not "InGodWeTrustples" or "GodBlessAmericetas".
– elliot svensson
yesterday
For what it's worth, honestly, when was the last time you used coined or printed currency? When you pay by credit card or ATM (or bitcoin, check, etc) you use dollars, cents, and $... not "InGodWeTrustples" or "GodBlessAmericetas".
– elliot svensson
yesterday
3
3
@elliotsvensson - Just purchased a soda from my work vending machine about the time you made that comment. Coins for that. Generally, I use currency when buying pitchers of lager for my volleyball team every Thursday.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
@elliotsvensson - Just purchased a soda from my work vending machine about the time you made that comment. Coins for that. Generally, I use currency when buying pitchers of lager for my volleyball team every Thursday.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
Based on your comment on my answer, and after reading this one, I wonder if you and I are answering subtly different questions: why is it allowed vs. why isn't it banned. Maybe I'm splitting too fine a hair or off base with that.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
Based on your comment on my answer, and after reading this one, I wonder if you and I are answering subtly different questions: why is it allowed vs. why isn't it banned. Maybe I'm splitting too fine a hair or off base with that.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
@JaredSmith - I'm answering neither of those, actually. I'm answering the "isn't this a contradiction of the idea of separation," to which I say "Yes, it certainly is." The rest of my answer is to flesh out some details that I think support my claim that is it specifically religious, as opposed to a general motto like "Eat Cheese or Die" (the unofficial motto of the state of Wisconsin).
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
@JaredSmith - I'm answering neither of those, actually. I'm answering the "isn't this a contradiction of the idea of separation," to which I say "Yes, it certainly is." The rest of my answer is to flesh out some details that I think support my claim that is it specifically religious, as opposed to a general motto like "Eat Cheese or Die" (the unofficial motto of the state of Wisconsin).
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet wow that's epic. Now I'm hungry. As for the rest, I find your argument reasonable but unconvincing. We're still talking about a bunch of theists who did the writing. I find the "we can't sort this out so we're going to officially punt" narrative more likely than the "even though we all believe in God let's act like we don't" narrative. Or am I miss-reading you?
– Jared Smith
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet wow that's epic. Now I'm hungry. As for the rest, I find your argument reasonable but unconvincing. We're still talking about a bunch of theists who did the writing. I find the "we can't sort this out so we're going to officially punt" narrative more likely than the "even though we all believe in God let's act like we don't" narrative. Or am I miss-reading you?
– Jared Smith
yesterday
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
4
down vote
Note that the examples you cite do not specify which God is being referred to. If the government made reference to Jesus or the ten commandments, that would be different.
That vagueness seems to be accepted as good enough both politically and legally. It's too vague to be classed as establishing a religion.
Atheists and some non-Abrahamic religions are unfortunately left out by this. That's a political consequence of those groups being a tiny minority in the US currently and even smaller historically. (However, that is slowly changing and the situation may look different in 50 years.)
And many people in those groups simply ignore such vague references to God. Many people say "Oh my God" in a purely secular manner and interpret these official references similarly. So even amongst that small group, there is not much political will to change this.
1
The linked table is interesting in many ways. Not least that there are apparently significant numbers of people who identify as followers of Christian religions that don't believe in god! Mostly I want to note that it is not just atheists who are being implicitly snubbed by the frequent references to god in American culture but also Buddhists and to some extent Hindus.
– Eric Nolan
yesterday
2
Except if you were to suggest that the trusted God was Allah or a Jewish god, either to current proponents or to the people who passed the resolution back in the 1950s, you'd be set straight very, very quickly.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
3
@PoloHoleSet - historically speaking - that is the same God; As Christians, Jews, and Muslims all find their historical roots in the same thing - the God of Abraham. They do diverge in particulars from that point on. Any reasonably intelligent and honest theologian from any of those religions would (and does) say the same. Again - there are divergences later in terms of understanding / belief of said God's character and intentions, but for practical purposes - it's the same
– NKCampbell
yesterday
The fastest-growing religious classification in the US is "None", so I'm not convinced nonbelievers are such a tiny minority.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
@NKCampbell FWIW, a Muslim guy I know claims that his God isn't the Christian one. Lots of Christians would say God isn't Allah. Logically, this makes no sense, because there ain't room in the Universe for two such deities. For practical political purposes, though, they aren't necessarily the same God.
– David Thornley
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
4
down vote
Note that the examples you cite do not specify which God is being referred to. If the government made reference to Jesus or the ten commandments, that would be different.
That vagueness seems to be accepted as good enough both politically and legally. It's too vague to be classed as establishing a religion.
Atheists and some non-Abrahamic religions are unfortunately left out by this. That's a political consequence of those groups being a tiny minority in the US currently and even smaller historically. (However, that is slowly changing and the situation may look different in 50 years.)
And many people in those groups simply ignore such vague references to God. Many people say "Oh my God" in a purely secular manner and interpret these official references similarly. So even amongst that small group, there is not much political will to change this.
1
The linked table is interesting in many ways. Not least that there are apparently significant numbers of people who identify as followers of Christian religions that don't believe in god! Mostly I want to note that it is not just atheists who are being implicitly snubbed by the frequent references to god in American culture but also Buddhists and to some extent Hindus.
– Eric Nolan
yesterday
2
Except if you were to suggest that the trusted God was Allah or a Jewish god, either to current proponents or to the people who passed the resolution back in the 1950s, you'd be set straight very, very quickly.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
3
@PoloHoleSet - historically speaking - that is the same God; As Christians, Jews, and Muslims all find their historical roots in the same thing - the God of Abraham. They do diverge in particulars from that point on. Any reasonably intelligent and honest theologian from any of those religions would (and does) say the same. Again - there are divergences later in terms of understanding / belief of said God's character and intentions, but for practical purposes - it's the same
– NKCampbell
yesterday
The fastest-growing religious classification in the US is "None", so I'm not convinced nonbelievers are such a tiny minority.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
@NKCampbell FWIW, a Muslim guy I know claims that his God isn't the Christian one. Lots of Christians would say God isn't Allah. Logically, this makes no sense, because there ain't room in the Universe for two such deities. For practical political purposes, though, they aren't necessarily the same God.
– David Thornley
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
Note that the examples you cite do not specify which God is being referred to. If the government made reference to Jesus or the ten commandments, that would be different.
That vagueness seems to be accepted as good enough both politically and legally. It's too vague to be classed as establishing a religion.
Atheists and some non-Abrahamic religions are unfortunately left out by this. That's a political consequence of those groups being a tiny minority in the US currently and even smaller historically. (However, that is slowly changing and the situation may look different in 50 years.)
And many people in those groups simply ignore such vague references to God. Many people say "Oh my God" in a purely secular manner and interpret these official references similarly. So even amongst that small group, there is not much political will to change this.
Note that the examples you cite do not specify which God is being referred to. If the government made reference to Jesus or the ten commandments, that would be different.
That vagueness seems to be accepted as good enough both politically and legally. It's too vague to be classed as establishing a religion.
Atheists and some non-Abrahamic religions are unfortunately left out by this. That's a political consequence of those groups being a tiny minority in the US currently and even smaller historically. (However, that is slowly changing and the situation may look different in 50 years.)
And many people in those groups simply ignore such vague references to God. Many people say "Oh my God" in a purely secular manner and interpret these official references similarly. So even amongst that small group, there is not much political will to change this.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Thomas
1,068314
1,068314
1
The linked table is interesting in many ways. Not least that there are apparently significant numbers of people who identify as followers of Christian religions that don't believe in god! Mostly I want to note that it is not just atheists who are being implicitly snubbed by the frequent references to god in American culture but also Buddhists and to some extent Hindus.
– Eric Nolan
yesterday
2
Except if you were to suggest that the trusted God was Allah or a Jewish god, either to current proponents or to the people who passed the resolution back in the 1950s, you'd be set straight very, very quickly.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
3
@PoloHoleSet - historically speaking - that is the same God; As Christians, Jews, and Muslims all find their historical roots in the same thing - the God of Abraham. They do diverge in particulars from that point on. Any reasonably intelligent and honest theologian from any of those religions would (and does) say the same. Again - there are divergences later in terms of understanding / belief of said God's character and intentions, but for practical purposes - it's the same
– NKCampbell
yesterday
The fastest-growing religious classification in the US is "None", so I'm not convinced nonbelievers are such a tiny minority.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
@NKCampbell FWIW, a Muslim guy I know claims that his God isn't the Christian one. Lots of Christians would say God isn't Allah. Logically, this makes no sense, because there ain't room in the Universe for two such deities. For practical political purposes, though, they aren't necessarily the same God.
– David Thornley
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
1
The linked table is interesting in many ways. Not least that there are apparently significant numbers of people who identify as followers of Christian religions that don't believe in god! Mostly I want to note that it is not just atheists who are being implicitly snubbed by the frequent references to god in American culture but also Buddhists and to some extent Hindus.
– Eric Nolan
yesterday
2
Except if you were to suggest that the trusted God was Allah or a Jewish god, either to current proponents or to the people who passed the resolution back in the 1950s, you'd be set straight very, very quickly.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
3
@PoloHoleSet - historically speaking - that is the same God; As Christians, Jews, and Muslims all find their historical roots in the same thing - the God of Abraham. They do diverge in particulars from that point on. Any reasonably intelligent and honest theologian from any of those religions would (and does) say the same. Again - there are divergences later in terms of understanding / belief of said God's character and intentions, but for practical purposes - it's the same
– NKCampbell
yesterday
The fastest-growing religious classification in the US is "None", so I'm not convinced nonbelievers are such a tiny minority.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
@NKCampbell FWIW, a Muslim guy I know claims that his God isn't the Christian one. Lots of Christians would say God isn't Allah. Logically, this makes no sense, because there ain't room in the Universe for two such deities. For practical political purposes, though, they aren't necessarily the same God.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
1
The linked table is interesting in many ways. Not least that there are apparently significant numbers of people who identify as followers of Christian religions that don't believe in god! Mostly I want to note that it is not just atheists who are being implicitly snubbed by the frequent references to god in American culture but also Buddhists and to some extent Hindus.
– Eric Nolan
yesterday
The linked table is interesting in many ways. Not least that there are apparently significant numbers of people who identify as followers of Christian religions that don't believe in god! Mostly I want to note that it is not just atheists who are being implicitly snubbed by the frequent references to god in American culture but also Buddhists and to some extent Hindus.
– Eric Nolan
yesterday
2
2
Except if you were to suggest that the trusted God was Allah or a Jewish god, either to current proponents or to the people who passed the resolution back in the 1950s, you'd be set straight very, very quickly.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
Except if you were to suggest that the trusted God was Allah or a Jewish god, either to current proponents or to the people who passed the resolution back in the 1950s, you'd be set straight very, very quickly.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
3
3
@PoloHoleSet - historically speaking - that is the same God; As Christians, Jews, and Muslims all find their historical roots in the same thing - the God of Abraham. They do diverge in particulars from that point on. Any reasonably intelligent and honest theologian from any of those religions would (and does) say the same. Again - there are divergences later in terms of understanding / belief of said God's character and intentions, but for practical purposes - it's the same
– NKCampbell
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet - historically speaking - that is the same God; As Christians, Jews, and Muslims all find their historical roots in the same thing - the God of Abraham. They do diverge in particulars from that point on. Any reasonably intelligent and honest theologian from any of those religions would (and does) say the same. Again - there are divergences later in terms of understanding / belief of said God's character and intentions, but for practical purposes - it's the same
– NKCampbell
yesterday
The fastest-growing religious classification in the US is "None", so I'm not convinced nonbelievers are such a tiny minority.
– David Thornley
yesterday
The fastest-growing religious classification in the US is "None", so I'm not convinced nonbelievers are such a tiny minority.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
1
@NKCampbell FWIW, a Muslim guy I know claims that his God isn't the Christian one. Lots of Christians would say God isn't Allah. Logically, this makes no sense, because there ain't room in the Universe for two such deities. For practical political purposes, though, they aren't necessarily the same God.
– David Thornley
yesterday
@NKCampbell FWIW, a Muslim guy I know claims that his God isn't the Christian one. Lots of Christians would say God isn't Allah. Logically, this makes no sense, because there ain't room in the Universe for two such deities. For practical political purposes, though, they aren't necessarily the same God.
– David Thornley
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
3
down vote
It is a (arguably slight) violation of separation of state and religion, as it implies the existence of a god and also (arguably) of a single god. However, that doesn't specifically imply support for a single religion, so it would only discriminate against atheists and potentially polytheists.
Note that it doesn't force or endorse a single religion and thus, doesn't, by itself, restrict an individual's choice of religion. It sure might offend though.
However, it is not a violation of separation of state and church, as it does not identify any particular church, imply support or preference for any church or support any particular church with means of the state.
Now this argument is general in nature, it is a different question whether the imprint violates any US law that might enshrine some form of separation of state and religion/church. There are many countries that are in principle secular states, aim to be, have laws in that direction and/or are generally considered as such, but do have some lawful entanglements with particular religions/churches, typically the (historical) majority denominations.
I've seen/heard it a few times, but the "it only discriminates against a few groups" argument is still so very terrible. I can't imagine anyone trying to argue that with race, for example.
– Geobits
13 hours ago
@Geobits: the main point is that it doesn't actually discriminate on its own and is relatively broad, but not all encompassing. Thus it transgresses the line of no religious interference/preference by the state, but less than endorsing or even enforcing a single specific religion would. I'll see if I find the time to rewrite that though, as indeed, the "discriminate" part is misleading.
– Darkwing
12 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
It is a (arguably slight) violation of separation of state and religion, as it implies the existence of a god and also (arguably) of a single god. However, that doesn't specifically imply support for a single religion, so it would only discriminate against atheists and potentially polytheists.
Note that it doesn't force or endorse a single religion and thus, doesn't, by itself, restrict an individual's choice of religion. It sure might offend though.
However, it is not a violation of separation of state and church, as it does not identify any particular church, imply support or preference for any church or support any particular church with means of the state.
Now this argument is general in nature, it is a different question whether the imprint violates any US law that might enshrine some form of separation of state and religion/church. There are many countries that are in principle secular states, aim to be, have laws in that direction and/or are generally considered as such, but do have some lawful entanglements with particular religions/churches, typically the (historical) majority denominations.
I've seen/heard it a few times, but the "it only discriminates against a few groups" argument is still so very terrible. I can't imagine anyone trying to argue that with race, for example.
– Geobits
13 hours ago
@Geobits: the main point is that it doesn't actually discriminate on its own and is relatively broad, but not all encompassing. Thus it transgresses the line of no religious interference/preference by the state, but less than endorsing or even enforcing a single specific religion would. I'll see if I find the time to rewrite that though, as indeed, the "discriminate" part is misleading.
– Darkwing
12 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
It is a (arguably slight) violation of separation of state and religion, as it implies the existence of a god and also (arguably) of a single god. However, that doesn't specifically imply support for a single religion, so it would only discriminate against atheists and potentially polytheists.
Note that it doesn't force or endorse a single religion and thus, doesn't, by itself, restrict an individual's choice of religion. It sure might offend though.
However, it is not a violation of separation of state and church, as it does not identify any particular church, imply support or preference for any church or support any particular church with means of the state.
Now this argument is general in nature, it is a different question whether the imprint violates any US law that might enshrine some form of separation of state and religion/church. There are many countries that are in principle secular states, aim to be, have laws in that direction and/or are generally considered as such, but do have some lawful entanglements with particular religions/churches, typically the (historical) majority denominations.
It is a (arguably slight) violation of separation of state and religion, as it implies the existence of a god and also (arguably) of a single god. However, that doesn't specifically imply support for a single religion, so it would only discriminate against atheists and potentially polytheists.
Note that it doesn't force or endorse a single religion and thus, doesn't, by itself, restrict an individual's choice of religion. It sure might offend though.
However, it is not a violation of separation of state and church, as it does not identify any particular church, imply support or preference for any church or support any particular church with means of the state.
Now this argument is general in nature, it is a different question whether the imprint violates any US law that might enshrine some form of separation of state and religion/church. There are many countries that are in principle secular states, aim to be, have laws in that direction and/or are generally considered as such, but do have some lawful entanglements with particular religions/churches, typically the (historical) majority denominations.
answered yesterday
Darkwing
25116
25116
I've seen/heard it a few times, but the "it only discriminates against a few groups" argument is still so very terrible. I can't imagine anyone trying to argue that with race, for example.
– Geobits
13 hours ago
@Geobits: the main point is that it doesn't actually discriminate on its own and is relatively broad, but not all encompassing. Thus it transgresses the line of no religious interference/preference by the state, but less than endorsing or even enforcing a single specific religion would. I'll see if I find the time to rewrite that though, as indeed, the "discriminate" part is misleading.
– Darkwing
12 hours ago
add a comment |
I've seen/heard it a few times, but the "it only discriminates against a few groups" argument is still so very terrible. I can't imagine anyone trying to argue that with race, for example.
– Geobits
13 hours ago
@Geobits: the main point is that it doesn't actually discriminate on its own and is relatively broad, but not all encompassing. Thus it transgresses the line of no religious interference/preference by the state, but less than endorsing or even enforcing a single specific religion would. I'll see if I find the time to rewrite that though, as indeed, the "discriminate" part is misleading.
– Darkwing
12 hours ago
I've seen/heard it a few times, but the "it only discriminates against a few groups" argument is still so very terrible. I can't imagine anyone trying to argue that with race, for example.
– Geobits
13 hours ago
I've seen/heard it a few times, but the "it only discriminates against a few groups" argument is still so very terrible. I can't imagine anyone trying to argue that with race, for example.
– Geobits
13 hours ago
@Geobits: the main point is that it doesn't actually discriminate on its own and is relatively broad, but not all encompassing. Thus it transgresses the line of no religious interference/preference by the state, but less than endorsing or even enforcing a single specific religion would. I'll see if I find the time to rewrite that though, as indeed, the "discriminate" part is misleading.
– Darkwing
12 hours ago
@Geobits: the main point is that it doesn't actually discriminate on its own and is relatively broad, but not all encompassing. Thus it transgresses the line of no religious interference/preference by the state, but less than endorsing or even enforcing a single specific religion would. I'll see if I find the time to rewrite that though, as indeed, the "discriminate" part is misleading.
– Darkwing
12 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
The founding fathers were largely theists and largely Christian, but from various different sects of Christianity. A substantial minority like Ben Franklin were deists.
Since they couldn't all agree which type of Christianity or even whether Christianity was preferable to a more generic deism, they put the separation of church and state provisos in to prevent one sect from taking over and banning all the others by government fiat.
There was not likely any serious intent that the idea of God would be abandoned, as evidenced by the official language you mention in your question.
Further more two of the largest groups to settle America (and have the first successful settlement) were the Puritans and the Quakers, both of which came here fleeing religious persecution. The idea of religious tolerance was probably a little more appealing in early America than most places.
4
The notion that this was implemented just because "they couldn't all agree which type of Christianity" is just flat-out wrong.
– Martin Tournoij
2 days ago
1
This ignores the fact that many mentions of God, such as the addition of "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, are much later (1954 in that specific case).
– Stuart F
yesterday
2
@StuartF "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men a created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..." emphasis mine, capitalization his.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
2
The Declaration has no legal standing or authority as it relates to the United States. The Constitution is our Founding document, and what statements and stances the Founders wanted to be associated with the United States were very carefully considered when they drafted that document. References to any god were not omitted due to oversight or forgetfulness. OP is asking about a specifically Constitutional question, as well. Besides, as I pointed out, the "Creator" in the Declaration is, in no way, a specifically Christian reference.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
Hypothetically, it would not have to be, but we're talking about reality here. They only claim that when they have to try and justify and defend the statements of supremacy against the very clear prohibitions on those kinds of statements, in court. At all other times, the statement is very clear that it is their Christian, Protestant God that we all must trust.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
|
show 17 more comments
up vote
0
down vote
The founding fathers were largely theists and largely Christian, but from various different sects of Christianity. A substantial minority like Ben Franklin were deists.
Since they couldn't all agree which type of Christianity or even whether Christianity was preferable to a more generic deism, they put the separation of church and state provisos in to prevent one sect from taking over and banning all the others by government fiat.
There was not likely any serious intent that the idea of God would be abandoned, as evidenced by the official language you mention in your question.
Further more two of the largest groups to settle America (and have the first successful settlement) were the Puritans and the Quakers, both of which came here fleeing religious persecution. The idea of religious tolerance was probably a little more appealing in early America than most places.
4
The notion that this was implemented just because "they couldn't all agree which type of Christianity" is just flat-out wrong.
– Martin Tournoij
2 days ago
1
This ignores the fact that many mentions of God, such as the addition of "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, are much later (1954 in that specific case).
– Stuart F
yesterday
2
@StuartF "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men a created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..." emphasis mine, capitalization his.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
2
The Declaration has no legal standing or authority as it relates to the United States. The Constitution is our Founding document, and what statements and stances the Founders wanted to be associated with the United States were very carefully considered when they drafted that document. References to any god were not omitted due to oversight or forgetfulness. OP is asking about a specifically Constitutional question, as well. Besides, as I pointed out, the "Creator" in the Declaration is, in no way, a specifically Christian reference.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
Hypothetically, it would not have to be, but we're talking about reality here. They only claim that when they have to try and justify and defend the statements of supremacy against the very clear prohibitions on those kinds of statements, in court. At all other times, the statement is very clear that it is their Christian, Protestant God that we all must trust.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
|
show 17 more comments
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
The founding fathers were largely theists and largely Christian, but from various different sects of Christianity. A substantial minority like Ben Franklin were deists.
Since they couldn't all agree which type of Christianity or even whether Christianity was preferable to a more generic deism, they put the separation of church and state provisos in to prevent one sect from taking over and banning all the others by government fiat.
There was not likely any serious intent that the idea of God would be abandoned, as evidenced by the official language you mention in your question.
Further more two of the largest groups to settle America (and have the first successful settlement) were the Puritans and the Quakers, both of which came here fleeing religious persecution. The idea of religious tolerance was probably a little more appealing in early America than most places.
The founding fathers were largely theists and largely Christian, but from various different sects of Christianity. A substantial minority like Ben Franklin were deists.
Since they couldn't all agree which type of Christianity or even whether Christianity was preferable to a more generic deism, they put the separation of church and state provisos in to prevent one sect from taking over and banning all the others by government fiat.
There was not likely any serious intent that the idea of God would be abandoned, as evidenced by the official language you mention in your question.
Further more two of the largest groups to settle America (and have the first successful settlement) were the Puritans and the Quakers, both of which came here fleeing religious persecution. The idea of religious tolerance was probably a little more appealing in early America than most places.
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
Jared Smith
2,7432914
2,7432914
4
The notion that this was implemented just because "they couldn't all agree which type of Christianity" is just flat-out wrong.
– Martin Tournoij
2 days ago
1
This ignores the fact that many mentions of God, such as the addition of "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, are much later (1954 in that specific case).
– Stuart F
yesterday
2
@StuartF "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men a created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..." emphasis mine, capitalization his.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
2
The Declaration has no legal standing or authority as it relates to the United States. The Constitution is our Founding document, and what statements and stances the Founders wanted to be associated with the United States were very carefully considered when they drafted that document. References to any god were not omitted due to oversight or forgetfulness. OP is asking about a specifically Constitutional question, as well. Besides, as I pointed out, the "Creator" in the Declaration is, in no way, a specifically Christian reference.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
Hypothetically, it would not have to be, but we're talking about reality here. They only claim that when they have to try and justify and defend the statements of supremacy against the very clear prohibitions on those kinds of statements, in court. At all other times, the statement is very clear that it is their Christian, Protestant God that we all must trust.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
|
show 17 more comments
4
The notion that this was implemented just because "they couldn't all agree which type of Christianity" is just flat-out wrong.
– Martin Tournoij
2 days ago
1
This ignores the fact that many mentions of God, such as the addition of "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, are much later (1954 in that specific case).
– Stuart F
yesterday
2
@StuartF "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men a created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..." emphasis mine, capitalization his.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
2
The Declaration has no legal standing or authority as it relates to the United States. The Constitution is our Founding document, and what statements and stances the Founders wanted to be associated with the United States were very carefully considered when they drafted that document. References to any god were not omitted due to oversight or forgetfulness. OP is asking about a specifically Constitutional question, as well. Besides, as I pointed out, the "Creator" in the Declaration is, in no way, a specifically Christian reference.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
Hypothetically, it would not have to be, but we're talking about reality here. They only claim that when they have to try and justify and defend the statements of supremacy against the very clear prohibitions on those kinds of statements, in court. At all other times, the statement is very clear that it is their Christian, Protestant God that we all must trust.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
4
4
The notion that this was implemented just because "they couldn't all agree which type of Christianity" is just flat-out wrong.
– Martin Tournoij
2 days ago
The notion that this was implemented just because "they couldn't all agree which type of Christianity" is just flat-out wrong.
– Martin Tournoij
2 days ago
1
1
This ignores the fact that many mentions of God, such as the addition of "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, are much later (1954 in that specific case).
– Stuart F
yesterday
This ignores the fact that many mentions of God, such as the addition of "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, are much later (1954 in that specific case).
– Stuart F
yesterday
2
2
@StuartF "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men a created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..." emphasis mine, capitalization his.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
@StuartF "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men a created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..." emphasis mine, capitalization his.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
2
2
The Declaration has no legal standing or authority as it relates to the United States. The Constitution is our Founding document, and what statements and stances the Founders wanted to be associated with the United States were very carefully considered when they drafted that document. References to any god were not omitted due to oversight or forgetfulness. OP is asking about a specifically Constitutional question, as well. Besides, as I pointed out, the "Creator" in the Declaration is, in no way, a specifically Christian reference.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
The Declaration has no legal standing or authority as it relates to the United States. The Constitution is our Founding document, and what statements and stances the Founders wanted to be associated with the United States were very carefully considered when they drafted that document. References to any god were not omitted due to oversight or forgetfulness. OP is asking about a specifically Constitutional question, as well. Besides, as I pointed out, the "Creator" in the Declaration is, in no way, a specifically Christian reference.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
1
Hypothetically, it would not have to be, but we're talking about reality here. They only claim that when they have to try and justify and defend the statements of supremacy against the very clear prohibitions on those kinds of statements, in court. At all other times, the statement is very clear that it is their Christian, Protestant God that we all must trust.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
Hypothetically, it would not have to be, but we're talking about reality here. They only claim that when they have to try and justify and defend the statements of supremacy against the very clear prohibitions on those kinds of statements, in court. At all other times, the statement is very clear that it is their Christian, Protestant God that we all must trust.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
|
show 17 more comments
up vote
0
down vote
"Isn't acknowledging the existence of God, as a state, a contradiction of the separation of Church and State?"
Your question contains the answer.
God and Religion are not one and the same - they are two entirely different things. Many religions are about God. On the other hand, God isn't about a religion, or 'church'.
There's a separation of church and state.
Nowhere is it written that there be a separation of God and state.
QED.
New contributor
2
Quite right: God is not a religion. Religion is about human practices -- how we relate to God. The 1st Amendment says that the government can't require you to attend (for example) Protestant church services or Catholic mass (nor can it forbid you from either) or to pray (nor can it forbid that). For the Constitution to require lawmakers to act as if they were in a hypothetical situation where God didn't exist would be absurd. Lawmakers and voters are free to adopt whatever assumptions or axioms seem right to them.
– Joe
yesterday
2
@Joe - endorsement of a specific God, at all, violates the Establishment Clause, not just trying to force someone to pray at my church. Requiring lawmakers to run government in a completely secular manner is no way makes them deny the existence of their beliefs or gods. That's a flawed argument.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
@elliotsvensson - It might, but since there is a prohibition upon preventing individuals from exercising the practice of their chosen religion freely, it would fall afoul of that.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
@Joe, Politicians are free to believe whatever they want but one of the major reasons this country was founded was because people didn't want 'the state' forcing its beliefs of a god - any god - on the people. So whether or not there exists one or more gods is irrelevant. Do note that 'the fact' of the people believing in gods and 'the fact' of there being gods are similarly irrelevant for creating good laws.
– CramerTV
yesterday
1
@Joe There are no valid proofs of the existence of a God, although that debate's more for philosophy.stackexchange.com. The government can work just fine without considering a god, as long as that god doesn't meddle, and there's very little evidence of any god meddling. Governments mostly act as if General Relativity wasn't true (the GPS program is an exception), and that has very strong evidence for it.
– David Thornley
yesterday
|
show 10 more comments
up vote
0
down vote
"Isn't acknowledging the existence of God, as a state, a contradiction of the separation of Church and State?"
Your question contains the answer.
God and Religion are not one and the same - they are two entirely different things. Many religions are about God. On the other hand, God isn't about a religion, or 'church'.
There's a separation of church and state.
Nowhere is it written that there be a separation of God and state.
QED.
New contributor
2
Quite right: God is not a religion. Religion is about human practices -- how we relate to God. The 1st Amendment says that the government can't require you to attend (for example) Protestant church services or Catholic mass (nor can it forbid you from either) or to pray (nor can it forbid that). For the Constitution to require lawmakers to act as if they were in a hypothetical situation where God didn't exist would be absurd. Lawmakers and voters are free to adopt whatever assumptions or axioms seem right to them.
– Joe
yesterday
2
@Joe - endorsement of a specific God, at all, violates the Establishment Clause, not just trying to force someone to pray at my church. Requiring lawmakers to run government in a completely secular manner is no way makes them deny the existence of their beliefs or gods. That's a flawed argument.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
@elliotsvensson - It might, but since there is a prohibition upon preventing individuals from exercising the practice of their chosen religion freely, it would fall afoul of that.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
@Joe, Politicians are free to believe whatever they want but one of the major reasons this country was founded was because people didn't want 'the state' forcing its beliefs of a god - any god - on the people. So whether or not there exists one or more gods is irrelevant. Do note that 'the fact' of the people believing in gods and 'the fact' of there being gods are similarly irrelevant for creating good laws.
– CramerTV
yesterday
1
@Joe There are no valid proofs of the existence of a God, although that debate's more for philosophy.stackexchange.com. The government can work just fine without considering a god, as long as that god doesn't meddle, and there's very little evidence of any god meddling. Governments mostly act as if General Relativity wasn't true (the GPS program is an exception), and that has very strong evidence for it.
– David Thornley
yesterday
|
show 10 more comments
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
"Isn't acknowledging the existence of God, as a state, a contradiction of the separation of Church and State?"
Your question contains the answer.
God and Religion are not one and the same - they are two entirely different things. Many religions are about God. On the other hand, God isn't about a religion, or 'church'.
There's a separation of church and state.
Nowhere is it written that there be a separation of God and state.
QED.
New contributor
"Isn't acknowledging the existence of God, as a state, a contradiction of the separation of Church and State?"
Your question contains the answer.
God and Religion are not one and the same - they are two entirely different things. Many religions are about God. On the other hand, God isn't about a religion, or 'church'.
There's a separation of church and state.
Nowhere is it written that there be a separation of God and state.
QED.
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
n13
1091
1091
New contributor
New contributor
2
Quite right: God is not a religion. Religion is about human practices -- how we relate to God. The 1st Amendment says that the government can't require you to attend (for example) Protestant church services or Catholic mass (nor can it forbid you from either) or to pray (nor can it forbid that). For the Constitution to require lawmakers to act as if they were in a hypothetical situation where God didn't exist would be absurd. Lawmakers and voters are free to adopt whatever assumptions or axioms seem right to them.
– Joe
yesterday
2
@Joe - endorsement of a specific God, at all, violates the Establishment Clause, not just trying to force someone to pray at my church. Requiring lawmakers to run government in a completely secular manner is no way makes them deny the existence of their beliefs or gods. That's a flawed argument.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
@elliotsvensson - It might, but since there is a prohibition upon preventing individuals from exercising the practice of their chosen religion freely, it would fall afoul of that.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
@Joe, Politicians are free to believe whatever they want but one of the major reasons this country was founded was because people didn't want 'the state' forcing its beliefs of a god - any god - on the people. So whether or not there exists one or more gods is irrelevant. Do note that 'the fact' of the people believing in gods and 'the fact' of there being gods are similarly irrelevant for creating good laws.
– CramerTV
yesterday
1
@Joe There are no valid proofs of the existence of a God, although that debate's more for philosophy.stackexchange.com. The government can work just fine without considering a god, as long as that god doesn't meddle, and there's very little evidence of any god meddling. Governments mostly act as if General Relativity wasn't true (the GPS program is an exception), and that has very strong evidence for it.
– David Thornley
yesterday
|
show 10 more comments
2
Quite right: God is not a religion. Religion is about human practices -- how we relate to God. The 1st Amendment says that the government can't require you to attend (for example) Protestant church services or Catholic mass (nor can it forbid you from either) or to pray (nor can it forbid that). For the Constitution to require lawmakers to act as if they were in a hypothetical situation where God didn't exist would be absurd. Lawmakers and voters are free to adopt whatever assumptions or axioms seem right to them.
– Joe
yesterday
2
@Joe - endorsement of a specific God, at all, violates the Establishment Clause, not just trying to force someone to pray at my church. Requiring lawmakers to run government in a completely secular manner is no way makes them deny the existence of their beliefs or gods. That's a flawed argument.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
@elliotsvensson - It might, but since there is a prohibition upon preventing individuals from exercising the practice of their chosen religion freely, it would fall afoul of that.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
@Joe, Politicians are free to believe whatever they want but one of the major reasons this country was founded was because people didn't want 'the state' forcing its beliefs of a god - any god - on the people. So whether or not there exists one or more gods is irrelevant. Do note that 'the fact' of the people believing in gods and 'the fact' of there being gods are similarly irrelevant for creating good laws.
– CramerTV
yesterday
1
@Joe There are no valid proofs of the existence of a God, although that debate's more for philosophy.stackexchange.com. The government can work just fine without considering a god, as long as that god doesn't meddle, and there's very little evidence of any god meddling. Governments mostly act as if General Relativity wasn't true (the GPS program is an exception), and that has very strong evidence for it.
– David Thornley
yesterday
2
2
Quite right: God is not a religion. Religion is about human practices -- how we relate to God. The 1st Amendment says that the government can't require you to attend (for example) Protestant church services or Catholic mass (nor can it forbid you from either) or to pray (nor can it forbid that). For the Constitution to require lawmakers to act as if they were in a hypothetical situation where God didn't exist would be absurd. Lawmakers and voters are free to adopt whatever assumptions or axioms seem right to them.
– Joe
yesterday
Quite right: God is not a religion. Religion is about human practices -- how we relate to God. The 1st Amendment says that the government can't require you to attend (for example) Protestant church services or Catholic mass (nor can it forbid you from either) or to pray (nor can it forbid that). For the Constitution to require lawmakers to act as if they were in a hypothetical situation where God didn't exist would be absurd. Lawmakers and voters are free to adopt whatever assumptions or axioms seem right to them.
– Joe
yesterday
2
2
@Joe - endorsement of a specific God, at all, violates the Establishment Clause, not just trying to force someone to pray at my church. Requiring lawmakers to run government in a completely secular manner is no way makes them deny the existence of their beliefs or gods. That's a flawed argument.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
@Joe - endorsement of a specific God, at all, violates the Establishment Clause, not just trying to force someone to pray at my church. Requiring lawmakers to run government in a completely secular manner is no way makes them deny the existence of their beliefs or gods. That's a flawed argument.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
1
@elliotsvensson - It might, but since there is a prohibition upon preventing individuals from exercising the practice of their chosen religion freely, it would fall afoul of that.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
@elliotsvensson - It might, but since there is a prohibition upon preventing individuals from exercising the practice of their chosen religion freely, it would fall afoul of that.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
1
@Joe, Politicians are free to believe whatever they want but one of the major reasons this country was founded was because people didn't want 'the state' forcing its beliefs of a god - any god - on the people. So whether or not there exists one or more gods is irrelevant. Do note that 'the fact' of the people believing in gods and 'the fact' of there being gods are similarly irrelevant for creating good laws.
– CramerTV
yesterday
@Joe, Politicians are free to believe whatever they want but one of the major reasons this country was founded was because people didn't want 'the state' forcing its beliefs of a god - any god - on the people. So whether or not there exists one or more gods is irrelevant. Do note that 'the fact' of the people believing in gods and 'the fact' of there being gods are similarly irrelevant for creating good laws.
– CramerTV
yesterday
1
1
@Joe There are no valid proofs of the existence of a God, although that debate's more for philosophy.stackexchange.com. The government can work just fine without considering a god, as long as that god doesn't meddle, and there's very little evidence of any god meddling. Governments mostly act as if General Relativity wasn't true (the GPS program is an exception), and that has very strong evidence for it.
– David Thornley
yesterday
@Joe There are no valid proofs of the existence of a God, although that debate's more for philosophy.stackexchange.com. The government can work just fine without considering a god, as long as that god doesn't meddle, and there's very little evidence of any god meddling. Governments mostly act as if General Relativity wasn't true (the GPS program is an exception), and that has very strong evidence for it.
– David Thornley
yesterday
|
show 10 more comments
up vote
-1
down vote
Without addressing your question per se, let's examine a parallel issue:
Does separation of church and state require the US government to promote atheism?
I think the answer is very clearly "No, that is not required by separation of church and state." The two extremes of building religion and destroying religion are addressed in turn by the first two clauses in the First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
A law with respect to the establishment of religion, such as the Church of England or the Church of Denmark, would be an unconstitutional law. Likewise, a law prohibiting the free exercise of religion, such as the laws which regulate the order in which akharas enter the water during Kumbh Mela, would be unconstitutional.
I'm not sure that providing an answer that specifically does not address the question is a great idea, unless you are looking to bolster some kind of street cred through accumulation of down-votes.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
Funny, I've never imagined this sort of street cred. I'll think about it.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet, mostly I'm avoiding the trouble of asking my own question and hoping people are cool with that.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
That would be the rebellious, non-conformist flavor of street cred, I'd think. In any case, I'm not down-voting, unless that is what you decide you want. Then I'm happy to "support" your cause.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
@PoloHoleSet, downvoting usually results in censure around here, so I don't think it's ever a good objective to try to gain downvotes.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
Without addressing your question per se, let's examine a parallel issue:
Does separation of church and state require the US government to promote atheism?
I think the answer is very clearly "No, that is not required by separation of church and state." The two extremes of building religion and destroying religion are addressed in turn by the first two clauses in the First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
A law with respect to the establishment of religion, such as the Church of England or the Church of Denmark, would be an unconstitutional law. Likewise, a law prohibiting the free exercise of religion, such as the laws which regulate the order in which akharas enter the water during Kumbh Mela, would be unconstitutional.
I'm not sure that providing an answer that specifically does not address the question is a great idea, unless you are looking to bolster some kind of street cred through accumulation of down-votes.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
Funny, I've never imagined this sort of street cred. I'll think about it.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet, mostly I'm avoiding the trouble of asking my own question and hoping people are cool with that.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
That would be the rebellious, non-conformist flavor of street cred, I'd think. In any case, I'm not down-voting, unless that is what you decide you want. Then I'm happy to "support" your cause.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
@PoloHoleSet, downvoting usually results in censure around here, so I don't think it's ever a good objective to try to gain downvotes.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
Without addressing your question per se, let's examine a parallel issue:
Does separation of church and state require the US government to promote atheism?
I think the answer is very clearly "No, that is not required by separation of church and state." The two extremes of building religion and destroying religion are addressed in turn by the first two clauses in the First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
A law with respect to the establishment of religion, such as the Church of England or the Church of Denmark, would be an unconstitutional law. Likewise, a law prohibiting the free exercise of religion, such as the laws which regulate the order in which akharas enter the water during Kumbh Mela, would be unconstitutional.
Without addressing your question per se, let's examine a parallel issue:
Does separation of church and state require the US government to promote atheism?
I think the answer is very clearly "No, that is not required by separation of church and state." The two extremes of building religion and destroying religion are addressed in turn by the first two clauses in the First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
A law with respect to the establishment of religion, such as the Church of England or the Church of Denmark, would be an unconstitutional law. Likewise, a law prohibiting the free exercise of religion, such as the laws which regulate the order in which akharas enter the water during Kumbh Mela, would be unconstitutional.
answered yesterday
elliot svensson
1,9391516
1,9391516
I'm not sure that providing an answer that specifically does not address the question is a great idea, unless you are looking to bolster some kind of street cred through accumulation of down-votes.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
Funny, I've never imagined this sort of street cred. I'll think about it.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet, mostly I'm avoiding the trouble of asking my own question and hoping people are cool with that.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
That would be the rebellious, non-conformist flavor of street cred, I'd think. In any case, I'm not down-voting, unless that is what you decide you want. Then I'm happy to "support" your cause.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
@PoloHoleSet, downvoting usually results in censure around here, so I don't think it's ever a good objective to try to gain downvotes.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
add a comment |
I'm not sure that providing an answer that specifically does not address the question is a great idea, unless you are looking to bolster some kind of street cred through accumulation of down-votes.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
Funny, I've never imagined this sort of street cred. I'll think about it.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet, mostly I'm avoiding the trouble of asking my own question and hoping people are cool with that.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
That would be the rebellious, non-conformist flavor of street cred, I'd think. In any case, I'm not down-voting, unless that is what you decide you want. Then I'm happy to "support" your cause.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
@PoloHoleSet, downvoting usually results in censure around here, so I don't think it's ever a good objective to try to gain downvotes.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
I'm not sure that providing an answer that specifically does not address the question is a great idea, unless you are looking to bolster some kind of street cred through accumulation of down-votes.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
I'm not sure that providing an answer that specifically does not address the question is a great idea, unless you are looking to bolster some kind of street cred through accumulation of down-votes.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
Funny, I've never imagined this sort of street cred. I'll think about it.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
Funny, I've never imagined this sort of street cred. I'll think about it.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet, mostly I'm avoiding the trouble of asking my own question and hoping people are cool with that.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet, mostly I'm avoiding the trouble of asking my own question and hoping people are cool with that.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
That would be the rebellious, non-conformist flavor of street cred, I'd think. In any case, I'm not down-voting, unless that is what you decide you want. Then I'm happy to "support" your cause.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
That would be the rebellious, non-conformist flavor of street cred, I'd think. In any case, I'm not down-voting, unless that is what you decide you want. Then I'm happy to "support" your cause.
– PoloHoleSet
yesterday
1
1
@PoloHoleSet, downvoting usually results in censure around here, so I don't think it's ever a good objective to try to gain downvotes.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
@PoloHoleSet, downvoting usually results in censure around here, so I don't think it's ever a good objective to try to gain downvotes.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
add a comment |
Tommy is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Tommy is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Tommy is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Tommy is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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5
Those examples don't specify which God is being referred to. I think that is accepted as good enough. Sorry atheists...
– Thomas
yesterday
17
@Thomas which God doesn't really matter here, at least the way I see it.
– Tommy
yesterday
9
@Tommy You may not accept it as good enough, but it seems that legally and politically it is accepted. For the most part "freedom of religion" has historically been about choosing between different abrahamic religions and atheism didn't really enter into it.
– Thomas
yesterday
18
Nitpicking, until 1956 (H. J. Resolution 396) the unofficial motto of the USA was "E pluribus unum" (Out of many, one). Why then? The answer is the cold war. It was seen as important to mark the difference between the US and the "godless communists".
– liftarn
yesterday
6
@Thomas Even if that were true, there are religions in which referring to "God" makes no sense. Buddhism and Taoism aren't built around any God. Hinduism has many gods, none of them supreme.
– David Thornley
yesterday